Speak lovingly of Mary

[jckstraw72]

yeah it says hte Father, Word, and Spirit are one -- but one what? This could easily be Sabellianism, or any other of the many Trinitarian heresies. The accepted understanding of the Trinity is thanks to the Church whether people want to admit it or not.

 

[lionroar0]

1. It's not the role of others to disprove a claim, it's your role to prove it.

Actually yes it is the role of others to disprove a Christian Tradition. Which is held by all three of the Ancient Churches.

Good luck!!!

You didn't quote any Scripture. If you had, the point would be OBVIOUS. None of them say ANYTHING about Mary, Mary's body, or what happened to that body the moment of her death (or undeath, depended on what version of the dogma you hold to). NONE of them offer an ounce of substantiation for this DOGMA of the Catholic Denomination.

According you.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

yeah it says hte Father, Word, and Spirit are one -- but one what? This could easily be Sabellianism, or any other of the many Trinitarian heresies. The accepted understanding of the Trinity is thanks to the Church whether people want to admit it or not.

ah... so it's admitted now that the trinity is in scripture? Because we keep getting told it's not, to bolster the position of other non biblical dogmas.

Actually yes it is the role of others to disprove a Christian Tradition. Which is held by all three of the Ancient Churches.

wrong, wrong wrong. That's nothing but an unmitigated copout. If you are going to teach something as truth, you have to forward evidence that it's truth.

Can a math teacher tell kids what numbers mean without showing how it works? Can they state 7 and 8 are 15, without proving it? No! Even if it's an established truth, that truth must be DEMONSTRATED to each new "student." To try and teach something without backing it up beyond "because we say so" is dereliction of duty as a teacher. Just because you, and others blindly believe what is taught regarding these topics (and when I say blindly, I'm not accusing of no thought, just that you are believing something solely on the say so of others) does not mean that we all must, nor should.

According you.

Peace

according to straingforward reading comprehension, actually.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. It's not the role of others to disprove a claim, it's your role to prove it.
.

Actually yes it is the role of others to disprove a Christian Tradition. Which is held by all three of the Ancient Churches.

Nice try, but obviously not.

When a proposition is made, it is the one so proposing that has the burden of proof. When the Mormons state that Jesus came to America and founded His Church here, you do not insist that such is dogmatic truth UNLESS it can be proven to be false, nope, I'm sure you seek substantiation for the claim. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, my good friend.

You didn't quote any Scripture. If you had, the point would be OBVIOUS. None of them say ANYTHING about Mary, Mary's body, or what happened to that body the moment of her death (or undeath, depended on what version of the dogma you hold to). NONE of them offer an ounce of substantiation for this DOGMA of the Catholic Denomination.
.

According you.

According to anyone who can read.

I can read the words on the page, and thus KNOW that there's NOTHING WHATSOEVER here that proves this rumor, or even so much as mentions anything related to such. Obviously. I know that, you know that, all God's children know that.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[jckstraw72]

ah... so it's admitted now that the trinity is in scripture? Because we keep getting told it's not, to bolster the position of other non biblical dogmas.

the Trinitarian dogma that is professed by orthodox Christians is not in Scripture anywhere.

 

[Uphill Battle]

false. The Trinitarian TERMINOLOGY is not in Scripture anywhere. The trinitarian evidences are there for the reading.

Either or, it's a false comparison, anyways. Any time someone says "oh, well, the Trinity isn't in scripture" is playing a dishonest game.

The word Trinity is not there, and it is not laid out specifically. the scripture exists, however, that points to the trinity, that proves the dogma.

There is NO scripture, none, that indicates perpetual virginity. there is NO scripture, none, that indicates immaculate conception, or sinlessness, or blamelessness, whichever term you want to use. there is NO scripture, none, that indicates Mary being assumed to heaven. there is NO scripture, none, that indicates Mary as the new Ark of the covenant.

nada.

 

[lionroar0]

The word Trinity is not there, and it is not laid out specifically. the scripture exists, however, that points to the trinity, that proves the dogma.

Says who? Please provide evidence.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

According to anyone who can read.

Read what?

I can read the words on the page, and thus KNOW that there's NOTHING WHATSOEVER here that proves this rumor, or even so much as mentions anything related to such. Obviously. I know that, you know that, all God's children know that.

There's this rumor that started in the 1600's it's called Sola Scriptura. None of the Church fathers ever mentioned. Nor is it mentioned in Scripture.

How ever the Dogma that is being questioned is mentioned by the Church fathers and is in Scripture.

Peace

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is really quite amazing to me. We have avowedly Trinitarian Christians who insist that their trinitarian beliefs have no basis in the Word of God. Why? In order to substantiate their Marian dogmas which, by common agreement among all here, are most assuredly not in the Word of God. To denigrate the doctrine of the Trinity to the level of the fables surrounding Mary is absurd in the extreme.

As for biblical evidence of the trinity there are a multitude of scriptures, not the least being John 1:1-12 which establishes the deity of Christ. If Christ is God, according to that passage and there is only one God, then either God, the Father, does not exist (despite all Old Testament scriptures to the contrary) or there is one God with at least two natures - Father and Son. See also Colossians 1:15-22.

Romans 8:9 identifies the Holy Spirit as being both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. If He is the Spirit of both, and there is but one God, then we have established that God is one being with three persons - a trinity, as we would call it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

According to anyone who can read.

Read what?[/quote]


It was stated that the DOGMA of the Assumption of Mary could be proven from Scripture.

I asked for them.

Several were quoted.

NONE of them said ANYTHING about the dogma at all.

I know that. You know that. All God's children know that (if they can read).




.

 

[lionroar0]

This is really quite amazing to me. We have avowedly Trinitarian Christians who insist that their trinitarian beliefs have no basis in the Word of God. Why? In order to substantiate their Marian dogmas which, by common agreement among all here, are most assuredly not in the Word of God. To denigrate the doctrine of the Trinity to the level of the fables surrounding Mary is absurd in the extreme.

As for biblical evidence of the trinity there are a multitude of scriptures, not the least being John 1:1-12 which establishes the deity of Christ. If Christ is God, according to that passage and there is only one God, then either God, the Father, does not exist (despite all Old Testament scriptures to the contrary) or there is one God with at least two natures - Father and Son. See also Colossians 1:15-22.

Romans 8:9 identifies the Holy Spirit as being both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. If He is the Spirit of both, and there is but one God, then we have established that God is one being with three persons - a trinity, as we would call it.

This is really quite amazing to me. We have avowedly Trinitarian Christians who insist that their trinitarian beliefs have no basis in the Word of God. Why? In order to substantiate their Marian dogmas which, by common agreement among all here, are most assuredly not in the Word of God.

Double standard. The same Church that defined the Trinity defines "Their Marian Dogma."

Since the same Church that defined the Trinity belives that Mary was taken to heaven body and soul. Is mistaken about this. Their is no guarantee that the Church that defined the Trinity is correct about the Trinity.

Let's take a look.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

It says nothing of the relationship of the person of Jesus between His humanity and deity. It does not state at what point God became flesh. Since God became flesh. It looks like He is no longer God but something entirely new. Maybe a spirit that gives the illusion of flesh since God is spirit. It also says nothing about the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 1:15-22.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

It says that He was please to have all fullness dwell in Him. So Jesus is not God but seperate from God.


Romans 8:9

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.


Looks like two Spirits.

1st. There is the Spirit of God,
2nd. There is the Spirit of Christ.

Looks like one must have two Spirits.

And nothing about the relationship of the persons of the Trinity.

Nothing about the Trinity here.

Peace

 

[jckstraw72]

We have avowedly Trinitarian Christians who insist that their trinitarian beliefs have no basis in the Word of God.

no of course the basis is there. but the dogma is not spelled out -- it was worked out by the guidance of the Holy Spirit by the Church. the basis of certain "Marian" dogmas are there as well (Marian dogma is a misnomer anyways -- they center on Christology)

 

[Amylisa]

I am very weary of debates. I would just like to say in regards to the title of this thread,
AMEN!!!

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus is no longer a baby so why do you post these pictures that He is? He is not even on the cross any more. He sits on the right hand side of the Father.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Double standard. The same Church that defined the Trinity defines "Their Marian Dogma."

Since the same Church that defined the Trinity belives that Mary was taken to heaven body and soul. Is mistaken about this. Their is no guarantee that the Church that defined the Trinity is correct about the Trinity.

Let's take a look.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

It says nothing of the relationship of the person of Jesus between His humanity and deity. It does not state at what point God became flesh. Since God became flesh. It looks like He is no longer God but something entirely new. Maybe a spirit that gives the illusion of flesh since God is spirit. It also says nothing about the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 1:15-22.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

It says that He was please to have all fullness dwell in Him. So Jesus is not God but seperate from God.


Romans 8:9

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.


Looks like two Spirits.

1st. There is the Spirit of God,
2nd. There is the Spirit of Christ.

Looks like one must have two Spirits.

And nothing about the relationship of the persons of the Trinity.

Nothing about the Trinity here.

Peace

It may come as a shock to you, but Christians who have no affinity with your church, but only with the Bible, have understood and believed that there is one God revealed in scripture and that He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It was not the church that invented the Trinity.

However, I respectfully ask you to show me the scriptures which provide a basis for believing in the assumption of the Blessed Virgin, her perpetual virginity, and her immaculate conception.

It appears that you now reject the biblical basis for the Trinity and believe that the BIble teaches the existence of many Gods. Thus, you reject the Bible and accept your church's teachings which you apparently you believe to be extrabiblical in nature. In that, how are you any different than any cult, such as Mormonism?

How do you handle John 10:22-33?

 

[jckstraw72]

Jesus is no longer a baby so why do you post these pictures that He is? He is not even on the cross any more. He sits on the right hand side of the Father.

bc His Incarnation and Crucifixion are essential for our salvation and thus we remember and depict them.

 

[jckstraw72]

Jesus is no longer a baby so why do you post these pictures that He is? He is not even on the cross any more. He sits on the right hand side of the Father.

bc His Incarnation and Crucifixion are essential for our salvation and thus we remember and depict them.

 

[Sphinx777]

Blessed Among Women

Blessed Virgin Mary

Bride of Christ

Bride of Heaven

Bride of the Father

Crown of Virginity

Dispenser of Grace

Ever Virgin

Free From Every Stain

Full of Grace

Handmaid of the Lord

Health of the Sick

Helper of All in Danger

Lady of Good Help

Lady of Grace

Lady of Mercy

Lady of Peace

Lady of Perpetual Help

Lady of Sorrows

Lady of Victory

Mary the Blessed Virgin

Mary Mother of God

Mary Queen of Angels

Mary Queen of Peace

Mater Dei

Mediatrix

Morning Star

Mother and Virgin

Mother of God

Mother of Good Counsel

Mother of Jesus Christ

Mother of Our Savior

Mother of the Church

Mystical Rose

New Eve

Patroness and Protectoress

Queen assumed into Heaven

Queen of All Saints

Queen of Angels

Queen of Apostles

Queen of Confessors

Queen of Families

Queen of Heaven

Queen of Heaven and Earth

Queen of Martyrs

Queen of Patriarchs

Queen of Peace

Queen of Prophets

Queen of Virgins

Salve Regina

Star of the Sea

Virgin by the Sea

Virgin Mother

Virgin of Charity

Woman Clothed With the Sun

​

 

[lionroar0]

Jesus is no longer a baby so why do you post these pictures that He is? He is not even on the cross any more. He sits on the right hand side of the Father.

And isn't the baby Jesus the same Jesus the same that is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Was he not born?

Last Sunday I was sitting in Mass and a lady was holding a baby. I assumed it was the baby's mother. I was wrong. It was the baby's grandmother. The baby's mother came in later. As soon as the baby saw his mother he smiled and opened up his arm towards her. He wanted to be held by her.

I couldn't help but feel awed by that moment, because Jesus as a baby did the same thing.

Imagine God wanting to be held by His mother.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

It may come as a shock to you, but Christians who have no affinity with your church, but only with the Bible, have understood and believed that there is one God revealed in scripture and that He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It was not the church that invented the Trinity.

However, I respectfully ask you to show me the scriptures which provide a basis for believing in the assumption of the Blessed Virgin, her perpetual virginity, and her immaculate conception.

It appears that you now reject the biblical basis for the Trinity and believe that the BIble teaches the existence of many Gods. Thus, you reject the Bible and accept your church's teachings which you apparently you believe to be extrabiblical in nature. In that, how are you any different than any cult, such as Mormonism?

How do you handle John 10:22-33?

Nonsensical nonsense. My Church does have a very Biblical affinity. So do Catholics. We understand that the Bible can't be rightly interpreted outside of Tradition. Unlike others that say that have a Biblical affiinity but yet have shown only ad hominems instead of actually responding to posts.

I do not reject the Biblical basis for the Trinity. I was showing that with out Tradition. Any Scripture that refers to the Trinity can be easily interpreted away.

One can't hold to the Biblical basis of the Trinity and not hold to the Tradition that defined the Trinity.

So far you have not given any Scriptural prove of the Trinity. It's existence or the relationship between the Three persons.

You have shown that there is a God called the Father by some guy named Jesus and then there's talk about Spirits.

Not much for Biblical evidence for the Trinity but you can keep on trying.

22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


So he claimed to be God according to the Jews. If this is your claim also please show proof. And what does this have to do with the Trinity?



Peace