Speak lovingly of Mary

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Okay.

Just list all the Scriptures that state that MARY was assumed into heaven upon her death (or undeath - depending on what form of the dogma you ascribe to).

.

Sure


.

Well, where are they?




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yes, that is the painting he made on the wood Christ used.
Showing even then how Jesus regarded her. He wanted His work to have her image...
And as i said - that image is still around today.
Thanks for pointing that out.

really. Accepted, because it fits what you want it to. Your church says so. You have any proof of this? That Luke was an accomplished artist? That Christ wanted her face painted on wood he worked with? (no evidence of that given, of course... but who needs any remote evidence, right?

Do you have Jesus fully without the honor He wants for His Mother?

This is just an introspection that I myself have found to be true.

How can we have all of Jesus if we refuse to honor His Mother whom He Himself honors?
Its just something we must pray about.

yes. Jesus says he will come to those who open the door to him, who call on his name. He never mentions anywhere, nor does any other NT author, mention that you have to go through Mary to get it. Or that you have to hold Mary in some nearly deified position.

That Christ is King or is not King?

no, and you know that. Obfuscation may be your specialty, but you know I'm talking about Mary as queen of heaven. I don't buy it.


I can't even respond to the rest.

Well, where are they?

[/size]

Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

You'll see them... once you're issued your Catholic goggles.

 

[jckstraw72]

Catholics are Sola Scripturists CJ -- you know that. more games ...

 

[Uphill Battle]

oh really jckstraw? call them that. Count the shades of red their faces go as the vhemently oppose the idea.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Catholics are Sola Scripturists CJ -- you know that.

Last I knew, WarriorAngel was a Catholic.
WarriorAngel is the one who insisted the DOGMA of the Assumption of Mary is taught in Scripture. I just asked, "where?"

more games

Could be, but I wouldn't assume so. Ask WarriorAngel. I just noted what was said.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[jckstraw72]

typo -- of course i meant they are not SS

 

[Uphill Battle]

of course not. That would remove their license to believe whatever it is the Vatican tells them is truth, even if there is no biblical record of such.

To be leaning solely on scripture, would make it rather hard to be a Catholic.

 

[lionroar0]

of course not. That would remove their license to believe whatever it is the Vatican tells them is truth, even if there is no biblical record of such.

To be leaning solely on scripture, would make it rather hard to be a Catholic.

To lean solely on Biblical record would have made it hard for christians from the 1st 2,nd 3rd and most of the 4th century.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

To lean solely on Biblical record would have made it hard for christians from the 1st 2,nd 3rd and most of the 4th century.

Peace

I agree, and disagree. The "bible" would be hard to find pre 4th century.... the scriptures therein wouldn't be that hard at all... they were written 1st century, and distributed.

a near thing, but that only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.

 

[lionroar0]

LOL how so with the Trinity? The word may not be in there but the meaning sure is..

Nope. No where in Scripture is the Trinity defined.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I agree, and disagree. The "bible" would be hard to find pre 4th century.... the scriptures therein wouldn't be that hard at all... they were written 1st century, and distributed.

a near thing, but that only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.

Right along with other gospels and other writtings intermingled with what we call Scripture and read during the Sacred Liturgy.

Kind of hard for people to say this is the Bible when there wasn't one and other writtings are being read as Holy Scripture during the Liturgy.


Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

this old chestnut? please. With study, you can find the essence of the trinity in scripture.

you cannot find the dogmas described in this thread.

 

[lionroar0]

this old chestnut? please. With study, you can find the essence of the trinity in scripture.

you cannot find the dogmas described in this thread.

There you have it. With Study.

A study produces a theory.

Is the study done with out preconceived notions that there is such a thing the Trinity?

Or is the study done with a preconceived notion of the Trinity?

Also Catholics are not Sola Scriptura. We take both the Bible and Tradition.

Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

Follow me CJ.

Tradition is in scripture is it not...
And not only in scriptures, but as i already explained the proof is in history and as i said - the OO [coptic] Church has schismed in the 4-5th Century...

There is no way they would have a similar hold to Mary if it were not an already established fact.

As for the Assumption - let's review history.

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

"As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him." Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

"It was fitting ...that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory ...should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God." Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life." Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

"St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God." John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself." Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb." Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century). "[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception." Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).


NOW for the scriptures that were fulfilled by her Assumption.

Mary's Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.


NOW I ask you CJ, to proove to me Mary did not receive as Enoch and Elijah did.

Furthermore; Psalm 132:8 is very clear.
An ark of wood does not go to a resting place...
But because Mary was hidden but prophecied in the OT via the Ark....and the teachings say she is the New Ark...we know she ascended with Christ on her death.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

 

[MamaZ]

Follow me CJ.

Tradition is in scripture is it not...
And not only in scriptures, but as i already explained the proof is in history and as i said - the OO [coptic] Church has schismed in the 4-5th Century...

There is no way they would have a similar hold to Mary if it were not an already established fact.

As for the Assumption - let's review history.

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

"As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him." Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

"It was fitting ...that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory ...should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God." Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life." Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

"St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God." John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself." Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb." Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century). "[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception." Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).


NOW for the scriptures that were fulfilled by her Assumption.

Mary's Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.


NOW I ask you CJ, to proove to me Mary did not receive as Enoch and Elijah did.

Furthermore; Psalm 132:8 is very clear.
An ark of wood does not go to a resting place...
But because Mary was hidden but prophecied in the OT via the Ark....and the teachings say she is the New Ark...we know she ascended with Christ on her death.

The proof is not on us. For Mary was not a prophet. Neither is she the ark of the covenant. So therefore your beliefs are not on scripture but what you assume into scripture. For Mary was never called the ark of the covenant. Never once in scripture. Mary is not a prophet. As Elijah and Enoch were.. Not once is Mary mentioned as being any of what you say she is.

 

[MamaZ]

where do you ever see in scripture Mary being anything other than the earthly mother of Christ? No where is it ever written that Mary is anything other. Her name is not mentioned very much at all in scripture.

 

[MamaZ]

The earliest extant discourse on the feast of the Dormition affirms that the assumption of Mary comes from the East at the end of the seventh and beginning of the eighth century. The Transitus literature is highly significant as the origin of the assumption teaching and it is important that we understand the nature of these writings.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I snipped out all but the scriptural arguements to critique.

Mary's Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

assumes what God would or would not do. There is biblical record of Enoch being assumed to heaven. None exists for Mary.

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Assumes what God would or would not do. There is biblical record of Elijab being assumed. None exists for Mary.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

places another scripturally unsound concept, Mary as the new ark, into the text. Scripture does not call Mary an Ark, it is another teaching apart from the bible.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Conclusion doesn't follow. If something happens, you cannot arbitrarily apply it to someone else to fit your whim. For instance, Moses was used by God to split the red sea. You can' then say, well, Saul did it too... because God did it with Moses! Same logic is being used, and it' severely flawed.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

Nothing in scripture precludes that Mary didn't lead an army to conquer Mongolia, either. Bad reasoning.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Hilighted the part that you seem to be missing. Besides, out of context, it speaks nothing of Mary in the passages, you're reaching.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

no, we see a vision. One that does not fit your presuppositions. We see the Child being taken up to heaven, and the woman running to the desert. Tell me, if this is about Mary being assumed to heaven, why is there specific allusion to her NOT going to heaven (as the child did....) but to the desert? Besides which, this is a vision, and not a literal rendering. I don't think Jesus actually looks like a sheep, do you? yet the vision speaks of him as looking like a lamb which had been slain... graphic imagery of a vision.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

False reasoning. Unless you can produce the bones of EVERY saint of all time, that is.

NOW I ask you CJ, to proove to me Mary did not receive as Enoch and Elijah did.

prove anything that didn't happen. Prove to me Mary didn't have 17 children. Prove to me that Moses didn't tapdance. Prove to me that Paul didn't play in a rock band. (I'm being deliberatly foolish on this, point is, the challenge to prove that something didn't happen, is sometimes rather impossible. You're asserting it DID happen, prove it DID. The burden is on YOU to prove your assertions, not those who don't believe it.)

Furthermore; Psalm 132:8 is very clear.
An ark of wood does not go to a resting place...
But because Mary was hidden but prophecied in the OT via the Ark....and the teachings say she is the New Ark...we know she ascended with Christ on her death.

you know no such thing. you BELIEVE it. The entire passage in Psalms is about the Ark. The actual one, not the imaginary conection of Mary as the new Ark. Which I will critique below.

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

no mention of Mary as the Ark.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

false comparison. if it were the same, people wouldn't have been able to touch Mary at all. I find that lacking in credibility, to say the least. Things the passage does not include, are anything regarding perpetual virginity, freedom from original sin, nor being the new Ark. All additions you've added to fit your preferred teaching.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

No, she didn't. There is no accounting that God could not come through Mary to this world, despite her being a sinner. Show me any reason to believe this is a neccessity, beyond what the RCC teaches. It is incomprehensible, becuase you buy the sinless Mary teaching, and can't think any other way.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

which speaks nothing of Mary. Again, it is you're "Mary is the perfect sinless perpetual virgin ark" teaching that is tainting the reading of the scripture, it's simply not about Mary.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

ah. I see. alright then, David is the Ark. 1 Samuel 22:5 He went to Judah. (do you not see the relative silliness of making this comparison, that one object, and one person have the word Judea or Judah in it, you call it a conspicuous comparison? what is conspicuous is the speciousness!) Beyond which, Mary arose and went TO Judeah. Dave went and got the Ark FROM Judah. It isn't a matching passage, no matter how many pretzel twists you put on it. Add some salt, and it will be quite delicous, I have no doubt.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

very very weak connection. If I seek out anyone else singing and dancing for Joy, could we use that to prove someone else is the Ark? no.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Addition to the passage. in Luke it says nothing about the Ark.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

weakest comparison yet. 3 months, oh wow, they MUST be the same thing!

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

hogwash. Read it again. He is showing things as they happened in his vision. Did you expect him to stop and give his commentary on the matter? You are arguing from absence, and it's weaker than the rest.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

sorry, even if it is Mary, and I won't fight one way or another on that, because it's a seperate issue, it doesn't mention the Ark being at all associated/compared to the woman in the vision. More reaching.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

I love how you add unprovables (as is highlighted) into your statements to lend them credence. It doesn't say Mary at all, btw... you have to make up your mind that it is Mary. And seeing as we are not her offspring, that is unlikely.

Rev. 12:2 - Some argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

this is HILARIOUS. You admit, as hilighted, that this is graphic, apocolyptic writing, but then insist it's literal where it proves your point. Double standard leads to false conclusions.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

nowhere is it said, shown, or indicated that Mary has been given any such power. Have anything else you'd like to add to the text?


on reading your list of apologetic, it becomes clear to anyone who doesn't predeterminedly accept the Marian dogmas, that the passages have been sought out after the fact to try and bolster a weak assertion, and not from study of the passages to reveal the truth. It is reverse engineering. We believe Mary was the ark... let's go find whatever we can to prove this.

nothing more. You have demonstrated no verse that directly supports any of what you've said, you've produced spin doctored apologetic regarding passages that ignores one simple fact: the subject you are touting is NOT in any of them.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I can prove it, and not only can i use Scriptures.

Okay.

Just list all the Scriptures that state that MARY was assumed into heaven upon her death (or undeath - depending on what form of the dogma you ascribe to).

Sure


Follow me CJ.


Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying.

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

You didn't quote any Scripture. If you had, the point would be OBVIOUS. None of them say ANYTHING about Mary, Mary's body, or what happened to that body the moment of her death (or undeath, depended on what version of the dogma you hold to). NONE of them offer an ounce of substantiation for this DOGMA of the Catholic Denomination.


But I'll await whatever Scriptures you have.

NOW I ask you CJ, to proove to me Mary did not receive as Enoch and Elijah did.

1. It's not the role of others to disprove a claim, it's your role to prove it.

2. I'll "disprove" this when you "disprove" that there are not little fuzzy creatures living on the Moon of Endore (do you get the point?).

3. I never remotely suggested that the idea is IMPOSSIBLE ("with God all things are possible"). I never even said it was wrong. What I said is that it's a late, entirely unsubstantiated rumor. It COULD be correct. It also COULD be correct that she was 15 feet tall, had pink hair and lived entirely on tacos (although frankly I doubt that). Conversations about what is theoretically POSSIBLE with God are always rather fruitless (although can kill a lot of time over coffee at Starbucks). It also does NOTHING to affirm if a dogma is true.



I'll await whatever Scriptures you have for this DOGMA. Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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