Spanking

[Andry]

Disagree with who, me? If so, do you mean that discipline does equal punishment or just that "in your history" people have used it incorrectly and synonymously?

Discipline does not equal punishment. Discipline equals correction.
My issue: We - parents in general - look to learn forms of punishment more often than we look to learn forms of correction. That's because many - yes, IMO - do not distinguish punishment from correction.

LOL! What a completely unfounded thing to say. Do you know most parents who spank, much less why they spank? Or do you, once again, mean "in your experience?"

I'm too lazy to cut/paste quotes from previous posts, so apologies if you have to scroll up and down. We can slice hairs about being uncategorically explicit (but I don't have the time, so again, if that irritates you, my apologies). Perhaps I should say "anecdotally" would be more accurate. As an anecdotal example, if you look through this forum on spanking related threads and posts, they are about 'how to spank' or 'when should I spank' and not 'how do I discipline / correct my child'.

Just so you're not misreading me, I'm not a non-spanking advocate. But the chasm from verbal correction to spanking is a long one. Yet, yes, in my experience, observation (yes, non-scientifically, since you seem pedantic about correct semantics and wording), yes anecdotally amongts my peers, associates, relatives, friends and acquantances who are parents....whew.....too many parents don't see it this way at all. In fact - insert my qualifier from previous sentence - spanking follows verbal correction.

I guess how sad it is would depend on the ages of those they are disciplining.

Ok.

I agree that many think that but thinking they are good parents doesn't make it so, nor does it make spanking wrong.

I never said spanking is wrong.

By "we" I assume you mean you and your wife? If so, I encourage you to analyze the reasons for which you spank. If, however, by "we" you mean parents in general then I encourage you to stick to judging the motivations that you know of, namely your own. You can't even be sure of your wife's motivations. You can only be aware of what she may tell you.

Nope. If I said, "you", you would take that personally. If I said, "they", I would feel I'm above us in general as parents. I meant "we", as in us parents in general. So that being said, what does that have to do with judging the motivations of others? Please clarify as I missed something.

That's actually the sad part. I, myself, have read numerous biblically based books on proper parenting.

Ok.

You may want to stick to responding to what I actually posted, which you did, in fact, quote:
"We spank because the proper biblical response to the willful disobedience of a child is corporal punishment."
That help?

Nope.

So you are advocating the belief that as "good parents" we should just take the spanking ourselves, as Christ took the punishment for the sins of His children? No? What then?

See above. I'm not advocating no spanking. I'm just seeing too many parents too quick to spank before other options....yes...my anecdotal experience.

Do you know what true biblical, godly love is? True godly love is giving the recipient of our actions that which they most need to be obedient to God with no regard for ourself. In the case of spanking our children we are to spank them to teach them obedience to the authority placed over them without being motivated by our own anger, aggravation, frustration, etc.

Now you're being presumptuous or patronizing. In the case of correcting our children, we correct them to teach them obedience.....etc. etc. Wouldn't that statement be just as valid?

By the way, I give. I give my children a spanking when they are willfully disobedient.

Good for you. I will spank my child (and I have) when I have exhausted all other options, or when safety is an immediate concern (eg. almost being run over)

First, I do have "words of correction" with all three of my children when they disobey me. And then they are given the lesson that there are consequences for their actions and oftentimes those consequences are unpleasant. I don't just "have a few words and then take them to a movie." I make sure they know I love them and that BECAUSE I LOVE THEM I am going to discipline them to teach them obedience, even though I don't enjoy having to spank them. Second, I don't waste my time with long, drawn out conversations about why they disobeyed. I know why they disobeyed. They disobey because they're children and rebellion is their nature:

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

Never in my post did I accuse you personally. If you read it as such, I apologize. I never said anything about you not loving your children. The times I had "long, drawn out conversations" were not wasted. In fact, to paraphrase A&E, they were times well spent.

I don't judge my children for disobeying. I need not. I already know that it is their nature to disobey. You think it's merciful to "have a few words of correction and then go see a movie" when your child is disobedient. This may be sufficient, depending on the age of your child. If they are young I don't think it's merciful. I believe you are doing your child a grave injustice. If they are disobedient to their boss or the law is someone just going to "have a few words of correction with them and then take them to a movie?"

Please don't me of think as naive from being in the back woods of redneckville. Just as I never said anything about the character or disposition of your child(ren), please don't with mine. So let's not go into who's kid is better. Suffice to say if 'my' methods weren't working, I'd change it. I did however qualify it as it was difficult to do as it did not make sense to the natural mine - I was raised in a military home, so I know what punishment is like.

Of course it will. However, you misunderstand grace. It is not gracious of me to fail to equip my children with an understanding of the reality of consequences. Your children may very well be submissive to your methods. I will tell you that, IN MY EXPERIENCE, the method of correction you describe wouldn't deter any of the disobedience from any of the children I know.

What is the reality of consequences? Who's consequences? If it's your's, then it's probably different from mine.

People don't become saved because of an "enticement." God doesn't "woo" us to salvation. We come because we have been made alive. We are made alive by the efficacy of God's call, not our superior sensitivity to the call.

Slicing hairs with semantics perhaps? "We come because we have been made alive"...doesn't make sense. If we have been made alive, then we came already, not come to it. Unless I'm missing something. Don't assume everyone believes in the "T" of 'tulip'. That's perhaps off topic, so I won't go there if you don't.

I agree. However, if it's grace that changed your life it wasn't because you responded to an "enticement."

Again perhaps semantics, but why did you respond then?

I am neither stupid nor uncreative. I'm also not confused about the applicability of corporal punishment. That seems to be your burden to bear, or not, as you will.

Again, difficult to articulate "you's' we's, and us's" in text form. Never meant you as in you personally.

I don't blame my kids. I blame the weakness of their flesh and the fallen desires of their heart that are inherent in us since the Fall. I don't spank because I'm mad at them. I spank because it's the proper way to deal with willful disobedience in a child.

Again, I was never accusing you personally. I correct because it's the proper way of willful disobedience in a child. Spanking can be part of that - and has been part of that.

I agree completely. Part of our job as parents is to teach our children the proper way to behave and that there are consequences when we act in an inappropriate manner. I can just see it now:

"Mason," who is 2½ by the way, "what you did was wrong. I don't want to you do that anymore. Now let's go watch a movie."

Yeah. Riiiiiight.

LOL. Now you're being ridiculous. My example was not meant to be used across the board in EVERY situation and circumstance, to every age. What idiot parent would do that? (Again, not accusing you).

There is a better way. It's called spanking.

As a last resort.

God bless

Thank you. God bless you too.

 

[Reformationist]

Discipline does not equal punishment. Discipline equals correction.

I agree. Being that I disagree it's clear that you weren't initially responding to me when you said, "With respect, I'd have to almost completely disagree with you."

My issue: We - parents in general - look to learn forms of punishment more often than we look to learn forms of correction. That's because many - yes, IMO - do not distinguish punishment from correction.

Or just possibly many parents do differentiate between punishment and correction but just don't apply the terms the way you do. For instance, you'd probably say that spanking is a form of punishment whereas I see it as a form of correction.

I'm too lazy to cut/paste quotes from previous posts, so apologies if you have to scroll up and down. We can slice hairs about being uncategorically explicit (but I don't have the time, so again, if that irritates you, my apologies). Perhaps I should say "anecdotally" would be more accurate. As an anecdotal example, if you look through this forum on spanking related threads and posts, they are about 'how to spank' or 'when should I spank' and not 'how do I discipline / correct my child'.

Your sarcasm does your point no justice. Either way, I believe the issue isn't so much that most parent's have the proclivity to punish rather than correct rather it's that not everyone sees spanking as a form of punishment, as you seem to.

Just so you're not misreading me, I'm not a non-spanking advocate.

I didn't make the assumption that you were against spanking. However, it is clear that you have some very different ideas about the biblical validity and applicability of spanking than I do.

But the chasm from verbal correction to spanking is a long one.

As I said before, that would depend on the age of the child. Verbal correction isn't always the most effective means of teaching a young child the necessity of obedience.

Yet, yes, in my experience, observation (yes, non-scientifically, since you seem pedantic about correct semantics and wording), yes anecdotally amongts my peers, associates, relatives, friends and acquantances who are parents....whew.....too many parents don't see it this way at all.

Once again your sarcasm adds nothing to the point you seem to be trying to make. You keep appealing to what "many parents" do while that is not the issue at all in my opinion. Many parents do all sorts of things for the wrong reasons. The improper application of a valid tool does nothing to destroy the validity of that tool. All it does is point out that those parents need instruction in the proper application of that teaching tool.

In fact - insert my qualifier from previous sentence - spanking follows verbal correction.

Of course it does. I never said otherwise. However, I disagree that there need to be a wide chasm.

So that being said, what does that have to do with judging the motivations of others? Please clarify as I missed something.

I'm not sure how you missed it. You said it. You said, "Most of the time, we do spank because we're stupid and uncreative." I'm neither stupid nor uncreative so they certainly can't be the reasons "we" spank. My point was that they may be the reasons you spank but that would be for you to say, not me.

See above. I'm not advocating no spanking. I'm just seeing too many parents too quick to spank before other options....yes...my anecdotal experience.

You said, "When God so loved the world, was the world behaving properly? Was the world in obedience? So what was God's response? Took away our freedom? Beat us severely? Sent us to our room?"

Clearly you were relaying that we should handle things as Jesus did. Jesus took our punishment. I'm not sure about how you handle things in your super smart, super creative parental unit but the concept of taking my child's spanking for their disobedience is something I think even Dr. Spock would cringe at.

Now you're being presumptuous or patronizing.

I'm being neither. Try not to assume the worst about someone you don't know. I was merely explaining that spanking, in our household, is a loving action. While not necessarily a pleasant action it is still motivated by a love for the betterment and welfare of my children.

In the case of correcting our children, we correct them to teach them obedience.....etc. etc. Wouldn't that statement be just as valid?

Of course it would. It would be just as valid because it's synonymous. Spanking is a form of correction.

I will spank my child (and I have) when I have exhausted all other options, or when safety is an immediate concern (eg. almost being run over)

Well, that is surely your perrogative. It is clear that you don't understand the biblical validity of corporal punishment or you wouldn't feel it necessary to exhaust all other options, which I'm sure you mean hyperbolically? If you truly understood that spanking, in many cases, is the most applicable form of correction you wouldn't be afraid to use it for fear of using it wrongly.

Never in my post did I accuse you personally. If you read it as such, I apologize.

I never took it that way. No need to apologize, but since you did, thank you for your gracious concern.

I never said anything about you not loving your children.

My apologies if my text formatting made my intent unclear. I did not highlight that portion of my post to contradict a statement by you. I merely highlighted it to emphasize that the love I have for them is the reason that I will bear the unpleasant burden of spanking them when it's called for.

The times I had "long, drawn out conversations" were not wasted. In fact, to paraphrase A&E, they were times well spent.

I have felt this way on many occasions, at least when dealing with my oldest, who is eight. However, I have a difficult time keeping the attention of my youngest son, who is 2, for longer than 6 seconds so having a discussion about the inappropriateness of his behavior is a lesson in futility.

Please don't me of think as naive from being in the back woods of redneckville.

I'm from the back woods of redneckville. What are you implying?

Just as I never said anything about the character or disposition of your child(ren), please don't with mine. So let's not go into who's kid is better.

LOL! What are you talking about? Where did I ever say anything about the "character or disposition of your children?"

I was raised in a military home, so I know what punishment is like.

Really? What is "punishment" like? What, in your opinion, is the purpose of punishment?

What is the reality of consequences?

The reality of consequences is that there are consequences, and oftentimes they are difficult to deal with. Seriously, with all due respect to your methods, which you say work for you, the concept of "having a discussion and then catching a movie" with my child as a means of discipline would land me in an institution because it would never correct the inappropriate behavior my children occasionally express.

Who's consequences?

Anyone's. The fact is that there are consequences and while you may be a very patient and understanding parent who is willing to explore many different methods of parenting to find the one that involves the least amount of conflict, the truth is that that does not reflect the reality of life. When your children, or mine if you take issue with me using yours, grow up and disobey the law or a boss they're most likely going to get more than a stern talking to. That's the reality of consequences. The truth is that it is often these consequences that deter us from being disobedient to the authority placed over us. Knowing how much my children love movies, your type of correction would do nothing except motivate them to disobey.

Slicing hairs with semantics perhaps?

You think that distinguishing between man's response to the mere "enticement" of God and the efficacy of God's sovereign and regenerative call is "slicing hairs?" Sorry but they're WORLDS apart in the theological realm.

"We come because we have been made alive"...doesn't make sense. If we have been made alive, then we came already, not come to it. Unless I'm missing something.

What do you believe the point being expressed in the story of Lazarus is? Did the dead Lazarus came to Christ and then Christ called him? Or did Lazarus respond in the way that beings who have been called forth from death unto life naturally respond to the efficacious call of Christ?

Don't assume everyone believes in the "T" of 'tulip'. That's perhaps off topic, so I won't go there if you don't.

I never make the assumption that people believe the reformed doctrines of grace. Just so you know, it's not the "T" in T.U.L.I.P. that would apply here. It's the "I."

Again perhaps semantics, but why did you respond then?

Either you really like the word "semantics" or you're not quite sure how to use it. The difference between the anthropocentric teachings that make the grace of God the product of human choice and the God centered teachings which dictate that grace is the catalyst for our response is something that has been debated in the Christian church since it's inunciation and is much more than mere semantics.

As for why we respond, well, if we respond in a positive way and if that response is truly genuine, which only God and that person know, then our response is the product of divine intervention. God gives us the faith that we so desparately need and then blesses us for having that faith.

Never meant you as in you personally.

My mistake. When I read the general qualifier of "we," without any further clarification, I tend to include myself.

I correct because it's the proper way of willful disobedience in a child. Spanking can be part of that - and has been part of that.

I agree. I have never held to the belief that spanking is the only form of correction.

LOL. Now you're being ridiculous. My example was not meant to be used across the board in EVERY situation and circumstance, to every age. What idiot parent would do that? (Again, not accusing you).

LOL! Well, in all fairness, you didn't share the ages of your child(ren). On the other hand, I was trying to show the ludicrousness of using your method with my youngest child.

As a last resort.

This is the second time you've said that. Do you just think spanking is wrong? If not, why the necessity to make it "a last resort."

God bless

 

[Andry]

Thank you for your well reasoned approach. All sarcasm aside (specifically, mine), I'm too lazy to cut/paste/ctrl-v/copy ad neaseaum, so a synopsis on the salient points will have to suffice.

If you want to continue on some of the finer points (but potentially off topic), I'd welcome a PM.

Or just possibly many parents do differentiate between punishment and correction but just don't apply the terms the way you do. For instance, you'd probably say that spanking is a form of punishment whereas I see it as a form of correction.

Correct.

The improper application of a valid tool does nothing to destroy the validity of that tool. All it does is point out that those parents need instruction in the proper application of that teaching tool.

Succintly agreed! If you can encapsulate my issue in a nutshell, that's it.

You said, "When God so loved the world, was the world behaving properly? Was the world in obedience? So what was God's response? Took away our freedom? Beat us severely? Sent us to our room?"

Clearly you were relaying that we should handle things as Jesus did. Jesus took our punishment. I'm not sure about how you handle things in your super smart, super creative parental unit but the concept of taking my child's spanking for their disobedience is something I think even Dr. Spock would cringe at.

Jesus gave us grace and mercy. Apologies if I was not clear. Worked for me. I don't obey God because of fear of the consequences. For me, it's not about deterrence. I obey him because he's been so kind. Yes there are consequences, which may deter others. But I don't lie, steal, kill etc. because I'm afraid of the consequences (eg., punishment), but because I don't want to disappoint God. I'm just speaking for me, not implying anything to you or anyone else.

Well, that is surely your perrogative. It is clear that you don't understand the biblical validity of corporal punishment or you wouldn't feel it necessary to exhaust all other options, which I'm sure you mean hyperbolically? If you truly understood that spanking, in many cases, is the most applicable form of correction you wouldn't be afraid to use it for fear of using it wrongly.

I do understand, acutely so. Perhaps the word 'exhaust' sounds to you a bit dramatic or extreme, but for me applying these 'other options' have never been a stretch to the point that I'm racking my brains just so that I don't have to spank him at all costs because I fear of using it wrongly.

The 'many cases' that you refer to, which I agree as I can think of many cases where spanking would be the most applicable form, have not been the 'cases' that my son's been misbehaving in. Fortunate, blessed, dumb luck - insert own adjective - but it's certainly not because I'm super smart or he's super good. So what remains then, is that your list of the 'many cases' where spanking is appropriate differs from mine. No better, no worse.

I'm from the back woods of redneckville. What are you implying?

Nothing about you. Apologies if it seemed that way.

God bless

Thank you, and you too.

I truly appreciate and respect your thoughts and perspectives (please read this as genuine and sincere). If 'my' way produced a child that was spoilt, rebellious, selfish, overbearing, unbalanced, etc. etc.....then it's obviously not working. But thus far, it's been quite the opposite.

 

[Reformationist]

andry, may I just say that I discussing this topic with you has been an immense pleasure for me. You are clearly an intelligent, well written man who loves his God and loves his children and seeks to be obedient.

I look forward to future discussions and I pray that the Lord may, once again, grace both of us with the godliness you have shown here in this discussion.

One thing to note, my comment about the " back woods of redneckville" was a joke, though, in truth, I am somewhat of a redneck.

As for your methods, let me just say that a wise man knows the value of not fixing that which is not broken, so if your's works for you then I encourage you to stick with it. As for me, well, the children of my heart mean the world to me but rebellion seems to have been a trait that they have honestly inherited from me. So, for now, I, too, will continue to seek God's grace in my efforts to be the parent He wants me to be.

Thank you again for this engaging discussion,
God bless

 

[Hatsumi]

You feel free to raise your children as you see fit. If you don't advocate spanking then modify their unacceptable behavior in some other fashion. Just make sure you do something because, as I've told my sister, doing nothing IS doing something. It's teaching them that there are no consequences for their actions.

Thanks, dude, but after looking at your homepage, I suspect my kids are just a bit older than yours and I don't think I need parenting advice from you.

My problem is not necessarily with spanking; it's with your implication that one must spank a child to properly parent. My boys are 9 and 12 years old. They are kind people who know right from wrong, and this was accomplished without hitting them. Your way isn't the only way, nor is it the best way for every family and every child. "Not spanking" doesn't mean "not doing anything." The very fact that you even thought that, speaks volumes.

 

[Hatsumi]

Or just possibly many parents do differentiate between punishment and correction but just don't apply the terms the way you do. For instance, you'd probably say that spanking is a form of punishment whereas I see it as a form of correction.

Well then.... what is the purpose of punishment, if not to correct? Unless the punishment is a life sentence, I assume most of us hope that punishing a criminal's bad behavior will prevent it from occurring again.

I have never held to the belief that spanking is the only form of correction.

You have implied that it is the only valid form of correction for willful disobedience.

"Verbal correction isn't always the most effective means of teaching a young child the necessity of obedience."

"Spanking should only be used to deal with one specific thing and that is willful disobedience. Taking away priviledges is fine but it's not the proper way to train your child to avoid willful disobedience."

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks, dude, but after looking at your homepage, I suspect my kids are just a bit older than yours and I don't think I need parenting advice from you.

Then feel free to continue ignoring it. Just one side note, don't assume that since your children are older than mine that I am interested in parenting advice from you. I wish you continued success with your children.

My problem is not necessarily with spanking; it's with your implication that one must spank a child to properly parent.

Sounds like your a bit too touchy about your parenting methods if you get offended by the advice of someone whose children are younger than yours and thus, clearly unequipped to offer the great and powerful you advice.

You don't agree with my methods to begin with so why does what I say, or imply, matter to you? Do you think that one must spank to properly parent? If not then what does it matter to you that I do? Am I not allowed my own opinion? Shall I get all offended because of your clear lack of understanding and erroneous comments about spanking?

My boys are 9 and 12 years old. They are kind people who know right from wrong, and this was accomplished without hitting them.

I'm sure they are kind. Who ever said anything about children not being kind or not knowing right from wrong without spanking?

Your way isn't the only way, nor is it the best way for every family and every child.

Never said it was. What's your point?

"Not spanking" doesn't mean "not doing anything."

Never said that either. It's very mature how you try to change what I say. I'll help you out. I said, "If you don't advocate spanking then modify their unacceptable behavior in some other fashion. Just make sure you do something because, as I've told my sister, doing nothing IS doing something. It's teaching them that there are no consequences for their actions."

Maybe that will help.

The very fact that you even thought that, speaks volumes.

The very fact that you believe I thought that speaks volumes.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Well then.... what is the purpose of punishment, if not to correct?

The purpose of punishment from a biblical perspective should be to right a wrong, or right it as much as possible. For instance, if my son were to throw his baseball through the living room window he would be spanked and punished. The spanking would happen because he knows that he is not to throw the ball around the house, i.e., willful disobedience. The punishment would be directly related to the broken window. He would have to either pay for the repair of the broken window or, if he did not have the money, I would pay and he would do chores around the house to pay me back.

Unless the punishment is a life sentence, I assume most of us hope that punishing a criminal's bad behavior will prevent it from occurring again.

How the secular government deals with the transgressions of adults in our society is of little relevence to how I raise my children so I'm not sure why you draw the parallel.

You have implied that it is the only valid form of correction for willful disobedience.

Okay. Why do you post these quotes? Is it to refute my statement that "I have never held to the belief that spanking is the only form of correction."? If so, you need to read a bit more carefully. I distinguished between correcting our children and correcting willful disobedience.

Spanking is not the only form of correction but it is the only biblically valid method of dealing with willful disobedience in a young child, i.e., until they're about 10.

God bless

 

[Nicolette]

I don't believe spanking is wrong, really, and for some families it may work. In my experience, I've found it to be ineffective. Other methods of discipline seem to bring better results.

 

[herev]

I don't agree with Mr. Dobson on most issues. BTW, I don't believe he has a doctrate in anything. He has become wealthy, though. He lives in a gated community near Gardon of the Gods here in the Springs.

He has a PHD from the university of sourthern california in child development

 

[herev]

I'm all for spanking--I wasn't spanked much as a child--but I remember every single time!!!
I'm amazed at how we, in our modern world, seem to attribute all kinds of evil in the world to spanking--"It'll teach the child to be violent" "It'll rob the child of self-esteem and lead him to a life of crime", "it'll teach the child to make warfare", "blah, blah, blah" I'm also pretty sure the use of spanking has declined over the last few decades. HMM, doesn't that seem to coincide with the INCREASE of crimes by teens, killings by teens, mass murders at high school by teens? HMMM, let's bring back spanking and get some order here!
My daughter is 17 months old, she doesn't understand if I explain how important is is for her to not bite, as it is germ ridden, anti-social, or causes another child to experience pain. She doesn't understand when I say, "tomorrow, when you are at day-care, I want you to make sure you are nice to little suzie and don't bite." But if I see her bite, she surely understands a little pop to her legs." It doesn't leave a mark, it doesn't scar her for life, but it definitely teaches her that there are negative consequences for some choices in life

 

[Reformationist]

Nicely put my brother. I am glad that you seem strong in your conviction that properly administered spanking is an effecting parenting tool for you because, if I know this forum, and I do, you're going to need to feel that way. Be prepared to get some flack about popping your 17 month old. I used to get responded to by people that were so shocked that I would even consider spanking my 1 year old, when he was 1, that they thought I was the devil incarnate. Of course, the spanking was more of a sharp pat on the diapered behind but to many people in this forum that was akin to hitting him with a hammer. At least they acted that way.

Anyway, be prepared and know that so long as your motivated by your love for your child you're doing the right thing.

God bless

 

[allieisme]

I remember when I was little, I bit my sister, and instead of spanking me, my mom reached for my hand and bit me..She bit me hard...Needless to say it taught me a lesson, and I never bit again

 

[Reformationist]

I remember when I was little, I bit my sister, and instead of spanking me, my mom reached for my hand and bit me..She bit me hard...Needless to say it taught me a lesson, and I never bit again

While I personally see the logic in what your mother did I'm curious what lesson it taught you. Sure, biting one of your children for biting another of your children may dissuade them from biting again but what exactly are you trying to teach them? Was your mom teaching you that biting your sister is unacceptable behavior or was she just merely teaching you that it hurts? What would happen if you told her that you knew it hurt and that was why you were biting her? Did your mom think you didn't know biting hurt so she decided to show you?

God bless

 

[alaskamolly]

A website with some really good advice on spanking is
on a website No Greater Joy (.org I can't post the link yet, or I would!)...

They are pro-spanking, yet the way they help you go about it is such that you are 100% consistant...which means you end up spanking very little, in the long run, because your children obey on the first command. I don't know if we agree with every single little thing they teach, but the general advice has certainly proved wonderful in our home, and in many others I know!

As for our own opinions, as parents of four:

I am totally ok with Biblical spanking, not with abusive spanking. The Scriptures very obviously support spanking, so it's not like a Christian can be "against" it completely, you know, unless he or she wants to tear out the book of Proverbs and the book of Hebrews (and a few more here and there).

I think there are a lot of humans out there who have abused their power over children (not that that's a surprise--the nature of Adam tends to make humans totally consumed with themSELVES, which doesn't make for the best parenting skills!)... Many get abusive beatings, because that's all they've seen or known, confused with godly loving child training, and that's a shame because they really are two totally different things.

We spank with swats, mainly--depending on the child's age and the particular infraction--and do it hard enough to produce a surface sting yet never hard enough to inflict a bruise or something like that.

We never spank in anger, either. No emotional anything is given, other than an attitude like, "Gee, sure wish you would have obeyed, but you chose not to. And, hey, if you want to disobey all day, I can swat you all day, too." We almost act like we could care less! It is a VERY effective attitude, because they know we mean business! Sorta like, "Yeesh, I'd better submit here, cuz this lady'll swat my bottom till it's bedtime if I don't!" And it also protects the child from a big emotional tirade/guilt-trip, which some children really can't handle and can be very emotionally damaged by.

We actually rarely spank our children--most of our child-training was done during the toddler/early-preschool stage (where one swat is usually enough), and so by the time they are older, they rarely need spanked at all.

We really worked hard during the toddler/preschool stage though, to teach them to obey mommy and daddy's words!!!!!! Most other parents I see don't worry about obedience during this stage (they're always chasing around unruly toddlers, too)--and then they really have a time 're-training' their child around age 4 or 5, and beyond.

We've concentrated on the child's obedience during age 1-2, and then we've found the rest of the years to be relatively easy in regards to dealing with obedience issues!

Obviously a one year old is not 'spanked'--it's more like a light swat (just enough to get the attention), accompanied by a "no-no" and a pointed finger towards the object that is the "no-no." We are careful to be very simple and not confuse them...but always to be consistant... Example: the stairs are always a no-no, you cannot go up them, and every time you touch them, your little hand will get a little swat...

The consistancy makes all the difference. And the funny thing is, the little child rarely ever cries when the swat happens (becuase it really doesn't hurt that much), but sort of deals with it in a matter of fact way, often with a grin...maybe testing it a couple times to see if their hand gets that strange little stinging feeling every time it touches the stairs..., then shrugging the shoulders at the strange phenomenon, and moving on, and touching the stairs (or whatever your "no-no" is) rarely becomes an issue again!

We've done this with four children, all with totally different personalities (some who respond to training instantly and some cases that required a bit more persistance in some things--heehee), but it's worked well on all! We have SUCH awesome children too (and get lots of compliments from others, too!)--and they are very healthy and well-adjusted and not emotionally damaged from a few swats during their toddler years... In other words, it works!

Mind you, our home is VERY happy and everyone is VERY loved--so I am NOT talking totalitarian government or something--it's just that obedience is expected matter-of-factly. Swats were never abusive, and NEVER given with a big emotional lecture--just a "you need to obey, honey" and we move quickly on.

We wanted them to obey because it provided us the ability to HAVE a happy home, one where everyone is in order, which allows us to really ENJOY our children, enjoy having them with us, enjoy playing games and doing work with them, reading 10 million stories on the couch with them, homeschooling them, etc...

You can't expect rebellious children, though, if you yourself are in rebellion. I'd say the most important thing to have right is the marraige relationshiop--husband loving and leading his wife (as he submission to God), and wife loving and submitting to her man (in submission to God). That provides a context from which to reach out to the children.

I only say that because there is no point in working on getting the children in line, when you yourself are out of line! Hopefully this doesn't apply, but it's always worth mentioning just in case!


Blessings,
Mol

 

[Reformationist]

alaskamolly, I would just like to say that that is probably the best explanation of the proper, REAL LIFE application of spanking I've ever seen.

Specifically, I'd like to comment on this:

We actually rarely spank our children--most of our child-training was done during the toddler/early-preschool stage (where one swat is usually enough), and so by the time they are older, they rarely need spanked at all.

We really worked hard during the toddler/preschool stage though, to teach them to obey mommy and daddy's words!!!!!! Most other parents I see don't worry about obedience during this stage (they're always chasing around unruly toddlers, too)--and then they really have a time 're-training' their child around age 4 or 5, and beyond.

I've often gotten strange looks or comments because I spank my toddler, who is 2½. No one says I spank too hard, nor does anyone comment that I spank too often. The comments are mostly in regards to the fact that I spank at all. They say stuff like, "He's just a baby" or "You can't really expect a baby to be very obedient." I just smile and go about my business knowing that the fact that my child doesn't run around in a store like a little maniac and their's does is not coincidence. My sister, for some reason that I have no clue of, is against spanking. Her youngest child, whom I love dearly, is the most disobedient child I've EVER seen. She comments that she doesn't spank because she doesn't want to suppress his personality. I chuckle and tell her it wouldn't hurt for his personality to be suppressed quite a bit. The ironic thing is that, though I've never spanked him, he listens to me and NEVER gives me any attitude about it. He has seen me spank my children and I'm sure that has something to do with it but I also think that people sell children far too short in regards to their intellect. I think he's just smart enough to know that I won't put up with his bad attitude.

As far as what you were saying above, I remember when I first met my stepson, who is 8 years old now. He had just turned 2 and he was quite disobedient and very used to getting his way and very used to throwing a temper tantrum when he didn't, which would last until he got his way. I will give you that he is a fast learner, i.e., he doesn't often need to get a spanking for the same repeated offense, but I don't believe I've had to spank him but once in the last year. He is the most polite, considerate, mature, outgoing, witty, social child I've ever known. The spankings taught him respect for others and specifically respect for the authority placed over him. Despite what many think about children who are spanked, my experience is that children who are spanked are much more well adjusted than those who aren't.

If anyone doesn't spank and thinks their child is well adjusted please don't think I'm attacking you or your parenting skills. I'm not. I'm just speaking of my experience. Now, if I've met or seen any of you, then I am talking about you.

So, in response to all those people who swoon like Scarlet O'Hara when they've seen me spank my child I merely say, "I spank now so I don't have to later." The proof is in the pudding, as my good ol' pappy used to say.

God bless,
Don

 

[Hatsumi]

I'm amazed at how we, in our modern world, seem to attribute all kinds of evil in the world to spanking--"It'll teach the child to be violent" "It'll rob the child of self-esteem and lead him to a life of crime", "it'll teach the child to make warfare", "blah, blah, blah" I'm also pretty sure the use of spanking has declined over the last few decades. HMM, doesn't that seem to coincide with the INCREASE of crimes by teens, killings by teens, mass murders at high school by teens? HMMM, let's bring back spanking and get some order here!

I don't think that has anything to do with spanking. I think that dysfunctional teens are primarily a result of parents who just can't be bothered with their children. They are what happens when schools, daycares, and Gameboys raise a child. I also believe that you are what you eat, and lots of kids eat garbage. They have Pop-tarts for breakfast, processed junk for lunch at school, and Hamburger Helper (or fast food) for dinner because their parents are too busy to prepare a decent meal. All those chemical additives add up.... I don't think most people realize that artificial colors and preservatives are made from the same stuff we make gasoline out of. A polluted body can mean a polluted mind.

And we also have more and more media coverage of violent events. It isn't as though a teenager never killed anyone before 1970. We just didn't always hear about it.

When I was a kid I had friends who were spanked and friends who weren't. The ones who turned out to be the worst-behaved teens were the ones who were spanked the most. Maybe coincidence; maybe not.

 

[alaskamolly]

I don't think that has anything to do with spanking. I think that dysfunctional teens are primarily a result of parents who just can't be bothered with their children.

This is sooooo true. There is a certain place where the "discipline technique" really doesn't matter, because the most important piece of the puzzle is a set of parents who actually WANT their children.

The end of Malachi talks about "the hearts of the fathers turning toward the children and the hearts of the children turning towards the fathers." (I believe mothers are included in here, because when Dads turn, Moms usually follow, whether knowingly or inadvertantly). That is true revival.

And until a parent actually loves a child ("love" in the 1 Corinthians 13 definition--God's Love working THROUGH them), whether one spanks or does time-outs or yells or does nothing or beats abusively or restricts from TV or verbally manipulates or WHATEVER...it's not going to produce the results the parent is looking for.



**And thanks for the kind words, Don.
Among the things you said, I had to comment on this:

I also think that people sell children far too short in regards to their intellect.

We totally agree.




Blessings,
M

 

[Andry]

I don't think that has anything to do with spanking. I think that dysfunctional teens are primarily a result of parents who just can't be bothered with their children.

This makes me think of those people who abandon their pets because the animals got too big, or too out of hand, or uncontrollable. "Bad" pet owners don't want pets.....they want cute cuddly puppies and kittens. Once these puppies and kittens grow up and are no longer cute, but are actually a handful, these people abandon them. How selfish and irresponsible.

Sometimes I think parents don't want kids - but they do want babies. Cute cuddly babies. But once their babies grow up to their adolescent and teen years, and can actually think and talk back to them....the parents in a way 'abandon' them. Then they blame the kids. How selfish and irresponsible.

 

[herev]

Maybe coincidence; maybe not.

On this, we agree