Sovereignty--the most important characteristic of God

[FireDragon76]

That's what I love about Jesus, He doesn't exert His sovereignty, He just magnifies love beyond our comprehension.

Who can really follow in the footsteps of Jesus?

I've been fortunate enough to participate in a pedilavium in a cathedral, where each person would in turn wash a stranger's feet. It was a very moving experience, with a choir singing Ubi Caritas in the background. I think its difficult in this day and age for people to understand its significance without re-enacting it.

Jesus said the Son of Man does not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom.

 

[Geralt]

all of God's attributes are important, but i would consider Aseity as primary.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I disagree. It's not about placating modern culture, but clearly preaching the Gospel. It's about being sensitive to the context in which we preach.

I appreciate you sharing and you are certainly not alone in this line of thinking. I see that in modern churcheze, where the power of God confirming the Word preached is often lacking, as opposed to what was foretold in Mark 16. I don't see that confirming power in the original preachers. John 6 is a perfect example of how Jesus actually chased people away with hard teachings that ran counter to the culture about eating His body and drinking His blood, then followed that with "no one can come to me unless the Father has drawn him." He followed that up with a direct: "'Some of you don't believe'....this is why I said: 'no one can come to Me unless it is given unto him by the Father.'" Scripture reports: "Many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him." He never begged disciples to come back. He even turned to the 12 and said: "Do you want to leave to?" After Peter replied with: "to whom shall we go? We believe you have the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Then Jesus answered: "Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Peter grew the church by telling the people that they killed Jesus and needed to repent in Acts 2.

People aren't really coming to Jesus if they expect Him to be their Savior, but not their Lord. Maybe this is why He chastised all but the most persecuted church in Revelation and said only the overcomers will be given gifts--including eternal life--from Him?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

all of God's attributes are important, but i would consider Aseity as primary.

I think this is an important characteristic for God to be the Absolute Sovereign. If He were created of another then the other would be the Sovereign. Even though God promises us eternal life and that we will be co-heirs, we will never be the Absolute Sovereign. He will always be.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

That's what I love about Jesus, He doesn't exert His sovereignty, He just magnifies love beyond our comprehension.

Who can really follow in the footsteps of Jesus?

See this is what firedragon is missing and apparently you did to, when I talk about God being Sovereign, I am not using it in the sense of a Nero-type. I am using it in the sense that there is nothing higher than Him that can stop Him from bringing to fruition what He has promised.

I have never refuted His love as being a beautiful and amazing attribute of God. I have never refuted the power of love. I have simply said that having love without having the sovereignty (ultimate power; having to answer to no one but Himself) to fulfill the promises His love makes would leave us only with the broken promises of an idealist god.

If God were just one of many gods (none of whom were sovereign) or if our God had to answer to another more powerful God (whom we don't know), our God could still possess love and love us with an incredible love--He could even go to war with the other gods to defend us--but without Him being sovereignly-able to fulfill His promises, we would be unable to trust that His Word would not return void--even including resurrecting us from the dead.

I can't speak for you, but I am incredibly thankful that the "only true and living God" has the ultimate power to both: (1) declare "My Word will never return void" (Isa 55:11) and (2) "watch over His Word to perform it. (Jer 1:12)

Even Jesus gave pictures of His power being manifest for a reason. (See Matt 24:30-31, Rev 14, for examples) Furthermore, Jesus proved He could bring people back from the dead--even while here on earth in His first coming. Finally, Paul has a lengthy discussion about the problem if Jesus wasn't raised from the dead. Why? Because our faith rests in the power of God to resurrect us! In 1 Cor 15, Paul is inspired to talk about God's ultimate authority and Paul even goes so far to say: "If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain, you are yet in your sins. Then they also which have fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since through man came death, through man came also the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor 15:14,17-21)

This leads into "Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom of God....And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself, be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:24-28)

If His Sovereignty (unlimited ability to do what He says He will do) isn't crucially important, why was this shared?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

John is one of my favorite Gospels. It doesn't have an account of the Lord's Supper, but it does have an account of Jesus washing the disciples feet.

BTW, I felt the need to share something with you, because of what you shared.

I have a special fondness for what you have talked about with regards to re-enacting The Word and washing the disciples' feet, in particular. Before I knew God--and even before I really spent any time even reading the Bible, I got drafted into teaching Sunday school to four- and five-year olds. I agreed, because I didn't think I had to do anything other than be "the long arm of the law" to keep the kids under control as a former military guy while the old lady who had taught for years continued to be the primary instructor. Had I known what was going to transpire, I probably never would have agreed to do it, because I knew I wasn't qualified to teach about God and had little time for God--He was prioritized very low in my long list of priorities (except for Sundays when it was convenient and we felt like going to church). But, God....

The first day I walked in to fulfill my drafted duty--thinking I was just a warm body for kid-control-- I found out that the elderly teacher who had taught for years had shingles, then later her husband was diagnosed with Parkinson's. So, I suddenly found out that I was the only teacher for this class. I, also, was intelligent enough to realize that I had no ability to teach kids and no knowledge of what I was supposed to teach. So, I skipped church that day and went down into the basement where I wouldn't be seen and prayed: "God if you are real, you got me into this mess. Teach through me what you will." And, God--before I knew it was God--had me re-enact The Word--rather than just do the curriculum activities from the book. It was amazing what God did. He moved people who didn't go to our united Methodist church to bring their kids to my class. We re-enacted the stories that whole year! Then one Sunday in February, I was moved to be the one who served as Jesus in the re-enacting of His washing of the disciples feet. That is when God says He woke me up, though I still didn't realize He had. I just felt a conviction to get into His Word, then an insatiable hunger that remains to this day for His Word. As I continued to bury myself in His Word over the next three month, I came to feel a joy beyond unhappy circumstances and a peace beyond all reasons to worry. It was at that point that I felt like I had been awakened to God. I asked my then-pastor what happened to me. He didn't know, because he had never been born again. Sadly, he was the product of dry religion reproducing itself.

So my whole testimony is about God's sovereignly and lavishly applied love. His providence moved me onto a path that I never would have chosen to go on, if I had realized what I was getting into (teaching sunday school to 4 and 5 year olds) at that point. But that prevenient grace enabled me to be given the most amazing gift I have ever received: He chose to wake me up to Him when I didn't even think such a thing ever happened. I thought my nominal Christianity was all there was and I was so brainwashed by it that I never would have believed anyone who told me there was more. In fact, I was taught to run away from people who claimed to be born again and I never would have set foot in one of those churches! I am sure this wouldn't surprise you, but, as a brainwashed nominal Christian, I had to room with a guy from california who claimed to be born again--for six weeks during basic pharmaceutical sales training for Abbott Labs. When I first met him, he was on his knees in the hotel room with his Bible open. I thought: "Oh no, one of those...." When he told me he was born again, I told him: "That's great Frank. And as long as your born-again thing doesn't cross over to my side of the room, we'll get along great!"

Rooming with and observing Frank didn't change me. I didn't think I needed what his faith looked like. He didn't look different enough from the world for me to have a compelling reason to even investigate the Christian faith more fully. And, He didn't share anything that compelled me. He may have been praying for me, but while we were rooming together and well beyond that time, I was as much an immoral heathen as any others in that training class.

But, God…! And, I was still with Abbott Laboratories when God woke me up and I became an on-fire Christian. Frank got to see my very open faith that led others to want to Bible study with me--in the open. Frank got to see God healing people through me. Frank got to see a faith unwavered at the time we were both laid off due to a downsizing of the sales force. It may have been Frank's prayers that God answered or it may have been another's. It may have just been God's sovereign decision made before He created the world. God knows. Yay, God!

To this day, I ask "God's will be done in me and through me!" I don't have an agenda. I don't have an income to gain at God's expense. I just want to be well-pleasing in His sight, not because I am afraid of a tyrannical despot, but because I truly love the One who loved me first and who has already demonstrated unequivocally that He has the power to hold my life in His hand and use me for His glory.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Oh I'm not saying His sovereignty is new doctrine brother. Your misunderstanding my intent. I'm sure it's my fault that.

What I'm saying is that your focus on sovereignty as being a more important character aspect than all other characteristics of His nature is not taught in the scriptures and therefore, new doctrine.

I'm tired. And don't think I'm saying this right...lol..

Anyway, God bless you.

God bless you, too. But, God did teach that focus throughout the Scriptures from beginning to end. He speaks through a prophet what will happen, then brings it to fruition, then tells us that He did what He said He would and how it was fulfilled! Absolutely amazing. I am enamored by God and I am more thankful than anyone can know for that sovereignty that is fully capable of making His Word come to pass despite anything that anyone does to try to stop it from coming to fruition! I can truly rest my hope in the sovereign love of God. I couldn't rest my hope in His love, if He wasn't sovereignly capable of doing what He said for me.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I never said that. But we should think of Jesus as a servant leader, rather than in terms of human notions of sovereignty.

And, again, my friend, you have brought up a great point. We use too many "human notions" of concepts. We have corrupted the true concepts, including changing how God defines love. But, that's another matter.

I just think it is dangerous to eliminate something because humans may perceive it wrong. If we start doing that, what are we left with? For human notions have even corrupted the Biblical concept of love, the idea of a servant leader, the office of pastor, the gifts of tongues and prophecy, what is empty religion, and even the translated Word of God itself. Do we divest of all these things because of man-infused corruption, as well?

You and I often find ourselves on different sides of theological issues. I appreciate our discussions, because God uses them to provoke me to challenge what I have believed--which either leads to greater certainty of a piece of my foundation or a tearing-out of a piece of that foundation based on that re-examination. But, the fact remains that if we were free of human corruption, there should be no disagreement between us on the things of God. Do we throw each other out? Or do we stay in discussion with hopes that God will expose the Truth in greater clarity--regardless of who or what needs changing?

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, I felt the need to share something with you, because of what you shared.

I have a special fondness for what you have talked about with regards to re-enacting The Word and washing the disciples' feet, in particular. Before I knew God--and even before I really spent any time even reading the Bible, I got drafted into teaching Sunday school to four- and five-year olds. I agreed, because I didn't think I had to do anything other than be "the long arm of the law" to keep the kids under control as a former military guy while the old lady who had taught for years continued to be the primary instructor. Had I known what was going to transpire, I probably never would have agreed to do it, because I knew I wasn't qualified to teach about God and had little time for God--He was prioritized very low in my long list of priorities (except for Sundays when it was convenient and we felt like going to church). But, God....

The first day I walked in to fulfill my drafted duty--thinking I was just a warm body for kid-control-- I found out that the elderly teacher who had taught for years had shingles, then later her husband was diagnosed with Parkinson's. So, I suddenly found out that I was the only teacher for this class. I, also, was intelligent enough to realize that I had no ability to teach kids and no knowledge of what I was supposed to teach. So, I skipped church that day and went down into the basement where I wouldn't be seen and prayed: "God if you are real, you got me into this mess. Teach through me what you will." And, God--before I knew it was God--had me re-enact The Word--rather than just do the curriculum activities from the book. It was amazing what God did. He moved people who didn't go to our united Methodist church to bring their kids to my class. We re-enacted the stories that whole year! Then one Sunday in February, I was moved to be the one who served as Jesus in the re-enacting of His washing of the disciples feet. That is when God says He woke me up, though I still didn't realize He had. I just felt a conviction to get into His Word, then an insatiable hunger that remains to this day for His Word. As I continued to bury myself in His Word over the next three month, I came to feel a joy beyond unhappy circumstances and a peace beyond all reasons to worry. It was at that point that I felt like I had been awakened to God. I asked my then-pastor what happened to me. He didn't know, because he had never been born again. Sadly, he was the product of dry religion reproducing itself.

So my whole testimony is about God's sovereignly and lavishly applied love. His providence moved me onto a path that I never would have chosen to go on, if I had realized what I was getting into (teaching sunday school to 4 and 5 year olds) at that point. But that prevenient grace enabled me to be given the most amazing gift I have ever received: He chose to wake me up to Him when I didn't even think such a thing ever happened. I thought my nominal Christianity was all there was and I was so brainwashed by it that I never would have believed anyone who told me there was more. In fact, I was taught to run away from people who claimed to be born again and I never would have set foot in one of those churches! I am sure this wouldn't surprise you, but, as a brainwashed nominal Christian, I had to room with a guy from california who claimed to be born again--for six weeks during basic pharmaceutical sales training for Abbott Labs. When I first met him, he was on his knees in the hotel room with his Bible open. I thought: "Oh no, one of those...." When he told me he was born again, I told him: "That's great Frank. And as long as your born-again thing doesn't cross over to my side of the room, we'll get along great!"

Rooming with and observing Frank didn't change me. I didn't think I needed what his faith looked like. He didn't look different enough from the world for me to have a compelling reason to even investigate the Christian faith more fully. And, He didn't share anything that compelled me. He may have been praying for me, but while we were rooming together and well beyond that time, I was as much an immoral heathen as any others in that training class.

But, God…! And, I was still with Abbott Laboratories when God woke me up and I became an on-fire Christian. Frank got to see my very open faith that led others to want to Bible study with me--in the open. Frank got to see God healing people through me. Frank got to see a faith unwavered at the time we were both laid off due to a downsizing of the sales force. It may have been Frank's prayers that God answered or it may have been another's. It may have just been God's sovereign decision made before He created the world. God knows. Yay, God!

To this day, I ask "God's will be done in me and through me!" I don't have an agenda. I don't have an income to gain at God's expense. I just want to be well-pleasing in His sight, not because I am afraid of a tyrannical despot, but because I truly love the One who loved me first and who has already demonstrated unequivocally that He has the power to hold my life in His hand and use me for His glory.

I think that's a good point. Rather than speculating about what God's sovereignty is in the abstract, Christians are supposed to be transformed through participation in the sacred mysteries of Christ's life.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just think it is dangerous to eliminate something because humans may perceive it wrong. If we start doing that, what are we left with? For human notions have even corrupted the Biblical concept of love, the idea of a servant leader, the office of pastor, the gifts of tongues and prophecy, what is empty religion, and even the translated Word of God itself. Do we divest of all these things because of man-infused corruption, as well?

I have an article by Disciples of Christ theologian/pastor that helps explain where I am coming from. I encountered it years ago when I was engaged in my own theological quest with a head full of questions. It's about Dietrich Bonhoeffer's last work when he was in prison, where he is addressing some of the questions you are asking here. It's weighty stuff, but these are profound questions and it makes sense that it would require profound answers. It has shaped my understanding of being a Christian and no doubt has contributed to my own understanding and approach as a Lutheran.


Experimental Theology: Letters from Cell 92: Part 1, A New Theology


I think this quote in particular by Bonhoeffer really focuses in on the problem, and why it requires a rethinking of what it means to be a Christian in today's world:

What is bothering me incessantly is the question what Christianity really is, or indeed who Christ really is, for us today. The time when people could be told everything by means of words, whether theological or pious, is over, and so is the time of inwardness and conscience--and that means the time of religion in general. We are moving toward a completely religionless time; people as they are now simply cannot be religious anymore. Even those who honestly describe themselves as "religious" do not in the least act up to it, and so they presumably mean something quite different by "religious"

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I think that's a good point. Rather than speculating about what God's sovereignty is in the abstract, Christians are supposed to be transformed through participation in the sacred mysteries of Christ's life.

I think you still missed the point. But, I certainly agree that we should be transformed by active engagement with and through the Word of God, which includes sharing what we hear from God with others, just like Jesus Christ did.

Jesus certainly tried to share abstract concepts, too.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I have an article by Disciples of Christ theologian/pastor that helps explain where I am coming from. I encountered it years ago when I was engaged in my own theological quest with a head full of questions. It's about Dietrich Bonhoeffer's last work when he was in prison, where he is addressing some of the questions you are asking here. It's weighty stuff, but these are profound questions and it makes sense that it would require profound answers. It has shaped my understanding of being a Christian and no doubt has contributed to my own understanding and approach as a Lutheran.


Experimental Theology: Letters from Cell 92: Part 1, A New Theology


I think this quote in particular by Bonhoeffer really focuses in on the problem, and why it requires a rethinking of what it means to be a Christian in today's world:

I am sorry it has shaped your theology. I would rather hang with pondering the things of God than pondering His relevance or where He fits in in today's corrupted world. Nothing happens that He doesn't have to allow. satan never does anything that God didn't see coming and can't handle. And, nothing is allowed that God can't make work for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, including world war II, the Old Testament, the Book of Job, and Revelation.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am sorry it has shaped your theology.

Why be sorry? Bonhoeffer is commemorated in our church as a teacher of our faith and and an example of Christian discipleship. I consider his perspective prophetic.

I would rather hang with pondering the things of God than pondering His relevance or where He fits in in today's corrupted world.

Pondering the things of God means pondering the world he created and the people he loves.

 

[Loren T.]

Sovereignty is the most important characteristic of God. If you don't agree, please share what you think is and why. Thank you! Ya'll can argue, if you want. I'm not interested in that. I am re-exploring what I believe and why. I may interact with you, but it is only to deepen my clarity on the most important characteristic of the only True God.

Glad we have power and internet back so I can post again!

I'm not sure there is a " most important characteristic of God." Aren't all his characteristics equally important? But in regards to how he relates to us, love would have to be the most important. Otherwise it would be impossible to trust him.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I'm not sure there is a " most important characteristic of God." Aren't all his characteristics equally important? But in regards to how he relates to us, love would have to be the most important. Otherwise it would be impossible to trust him.

When I think of the quality of love as it relates to God, I honestly struggle with how that best ties into "being able to trust Him." Help me understand your logic using love the way God speaks of love, please. Here is my logic in questioning.

So, God's quality that "He is not a man that He should lie" builds trust, because I know that He is going to only speak the Truth. And, in His Word, He makes promises to those who love Him. If He won't lie and if He is sovereignly able to fulfill those promises and if I am one of those who love Him, then I can TRUST that He will bring those promises to pass for me.

If God loves me, but isn't sovereignly able to do what He says He will, then my trust in Him would be vain and as Paul said: "We are to be more pitied than all men." (1 Cor 15:17-19)

 

[Gr8Grace]

Sovereignty is the most important characteristic of God. If you don't agree, please share what you think is and why. Thank you! Ya'll can argue, if you want. I'm not interested in that. I am re-exploring what I believe and why. I may interact with you, but it is only to deepen my clarity on the most important characteristic of the only True God.

Glad we have power and internet back so I can post again!

All of Gods attributes are tremendous and infinite......But I believe His righteousness is the most important attribute God has.

Everything He does goes through His perfect righteousness.

A sovereign being can do absolutely anything he wants. But a perfectly righteous, sovereign being......can't. His sovereignty can only do what is righteous.

 

[Dave L]

Sovereignty is the most important characteristic of God. If you don't agree, please share what you think is and why. Thank you! Ya'll can argue, if you want. I'm not interested in that. I am re-exploring what I believe and why. I may interact with you, but it is only to deepen my clarity on the most important characteristic of the only True God.

Glad we have power and internet back so I can post again!

God's nature is his most important attribute. It holds his sovereignty in check so he doesn't arbitrarily do unloving things.

 

[Loren T.]

When I think of the quality of love as it relates to God, I honestly struggle with how that best ties into "being able to trust Him." Help me understand your logic using love the way God speaks of love, please. Here is my logic in questioning.

So, God's quality that "He is not a man that He should lie" builds trust, because I know that He is going to only speak the Truth. And, in His Word, He makes promises to those who love Him. If He won't lie and if He is sovereignly able to fulfill those promises and if I am one of those who love Him, then I can TRUST that He will bring those promises to pass for me.

If God loves me, but isn't sovereignly able to do what He says He will, then my trust in Him would be vain and as Paul said: "We are to be more pitied than all men." (1 Cor 15:17-19)

If he doesn't love you, then what good are the promises? If he doesn't love me then why would I want to know that he was going to be with me always? I wouldn't want to be with him! I don't care how much power someone has or what they can do, if they are only going to use that power to lock you in a cage and make you grovel before them. Without love, God is like every other god with a little g, saying "if you try really hard you might be able to please me."
We toss around the word "sovereignty" a lot, but really, it means different things to different people.
But to some degree, we can all understand sacrificial love.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Sovereignty is the most important characteristic of God. If you don't agree, please share what you think is and why. Thank you! Ya'll can argue, if you want. I'm not interested in that. I am re-exploring what I believe and why. I may interact with you, but it is only to deepen my clarity on the most important characteristic of the only True God.

Glad we have power and internet back so I can post again!

How do you understand sovereignty?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If he doesn't love you, then what good are the promises? If he doesn't love me then why would I want to know that he was going to be with me always? I wouldn't want to be with him! I don't care how much power someone has or what they can do, if they are only going to use that power to lock you in a cage and make you grovel before them. Without love, God is like every other god with a little g, saying "if you try really hard you might be able to please me."
We toss around the word "sovereignty" a lot, but really, it means different things to different people.
But to some degree, we can all understand sacrificial love.

But, if God was like you shared, He wouldn't care and you wouldn't have a choice. He would either force you or get rid of you, if you were even allowed to have any choice whatsoever. If He was sovereign and the way you described, He probably wouldn't have even bothered to communicate.

Love also means a lot of different things to different people, even tainting their reading of the Bible. But, that doesn't mean we throw out the concept of Love, as it pertains to God.

When I use Sovereign, I am referring to a God that has none above Him and can do whatever He wants without any limits except those that He puts on Himself.