Sovereignty--the most important characteristic of God

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

How do you understand sovereignty?

He is the absolute Sovereign meaning He has the ability to do whatever He decides to do. No one can stop anything He wants to come to fruition and nothing can happen without His allowing it.

 

[Loren T.]

But, if God was like you shared, He wouldn't care and you wouldn't have a choice. He would either force you or get rid of you, if you were even allowed to have any choice whatsoever.

Well, this is why I'm wondering what you mean by sovereign, because what you say right here is a pretty accurate description of how God acts under certain Christians forms of Sovereignty.

The question is usually not so much what God can do, of course he can do anything that doesn't violate his nature, but what he is doing, as in, how he governs his creation, and that is something not everyone agrees on.

 

[klutedavid]

He is the absolute Sovereign meaning He has the ability to do whatever He decides to do. No one can stop anything He wants to come to fruition and nothing can happen without His allowing it.

Sometimes in life, there are problems that we encounter, some very difficult problems at times. Some problems we dwell on for years, problems that seem to even lack a ready solution.

In the case of the vexing problem of human sin and judgement, the sovereignty and justice of God, demand nothing but the absolute destruction of humanity.

God has already destroyed humanity once, so why is God hesitating to deliver a righteous judgement?

There is only one solution to this paradox, why a just God will not, in fact, deliver true justice.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

There is the solution to the reason why God is reluctant to administer death to all. Just one solution satisfies the equation, because God actually loves us deeply.

The sovereignty of God is not the solution.

God is defined as love. A knowledge of God's sovereignty is beyond question. But only through and with love, can anyone truly understand God Himself. All we can observe is the love of God (Jesus Christ) in spades.

 

[Gr8Grace]

When I use Sovereign, I am referring to a God that has none above Him and can do whatever He wants without any limits except those that He puts on Himself.

And it is through His righteousness/justice we see those limitations of His sovereignty.

Example:

The calvinist will say God sovereignly saves us. Which is false. It is through His Righteousness/ Justice that He saves us........whosoever believes will be saved, because The Lord Jesus Christ satisfied His justice/righteousness.

Romans 1:17~~New International Version
For in the gospel the righteousness(not his sovereignty) of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sovereignty is the most important characteristic of God. If you don't agree, please share what you think is and why. Thank you! Ya'll can argue, if you want. I'm not interested in that. I am re-exploring what I believe and why. I may interact with you, but it is only to deepen my clarity on the most important characteristic of the only True God.

Glad we have power and internet back so I can post again!

The love of GOd is the most important characteristic of GOd. That is what God says more or less. "God so loved the world"...NOT "God is so sovereign over the world." In fact, where does God say he is sovereign?

I read that God says that men do not do the will of GOd. That is pretty obvious if one reads the news but the Bible says it as well. Not the sovereignity you likely mean. And GOd has no problem not micromanaging the world. Only those who want him to be responsible for everything they do like that doctrine. I am quite sure God does not like to be blamed for what men do.

Now I think you need to take a closer look at your desire to deeper your clarity. I think you are fooling yourself. You admit you do not want to argue. That means you do not want to engage in any thinking different than your already established view. That means you do not want to deepen your clarity but merely further entrench your thinking in the already prefered view that God is making everyone do everything they do.

Since you do not want to engage with anyone whose view is different, I do not expect an answer. But some truth needs to be injected into the false OP anyway.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sometimes in life, there are problems that we encounter, some very difficult problems at times. Some problems we dwell on for years, problems that seem to even lack a ready solution.

In the case of the vexing problem of human sin and judgement, the sovereignty and justice of God, demand nothing but the absolute destruction of humanity.

Ah, God never absolutely destroyed humanity. There was Noah and his family.

God has already destroyed humanity once, so why is God hesitating to deliver a righteous judgement?

There is only one solution to this paradox, why a just God will not, in fact, deliver true justice..

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

There is the solution to the reason why God is reluctant to administer death to all. Just one solution satisfies the equation, because God actually loves us deeply.

The sovereignty of God is not the solution.

God is defined as love. A knowledge of God's sovereignty is beyond question. But only through and with love, can anyone truly understand God Himself. All we can observe is the love of God (Jesus Christ) in spades.

There is more than simply observing the love of God in Jesus. There is knowing GOd and coming to understand his thoughts on these things, including what He does and does not do and where He interacts in the affairs of men. We can know GOd and that means we understand Him and his ways. It is possible. Moses did.

 

[klutedavid]

Ah, God never absolutely destroyed humanity. There was Noah and his family.
There is more than simply observing the love of God in Jesus. There is knowing GOd and coming to understand his thoughts on these things, including what He does and does not do and where He interacts in the affairs of men. We can know GOd and that means we understand Him and his ways. It is possible. Moses did.

Read my post again, carefully.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

He is the absolute Sovereign meaning He has the ability to do whatever He decides to do. No one can stop anything He wants to come to fruition and nothing can happen without His allowing it.

So what you mean by ‘sovereign’ is not the same as the Bible means by ‘sovereign’.

Shame! I thought you had it there.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

All of Gods attributes are tremendous and infinite......But I believe His righteousness is the most important attribute God has.

Everything He does goes through His perfect righteousness.

A sovereign being can do absolutely anything he wants. But a perfectly righteous, sovereign being......can't. His sovereignty can only do what is righteous.

I think you said it yourself up above. He has to be sovereign, before his righteousness matters. How do you decide what is perfect righteousness? Isn't it by God? If God is not Sovereign, who gets to decide what is righteous? And, if He isn't Sovereign what does his being perfectly righteous matter? If I was perfectly righteous, it may irritate you--like Lot in Sodom--but other than irritate you, it wouldn't mean anything, because I have no power over you--for good or bad.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

God's nature is his most important attribute. It holds his sovereignty in check so he doesn't arbitrarily do unloving things.

"His Nature" or "His character" encompass everything but His Sovereignty and being self-existent. But, again, if He wasn't absolutely Sovereign, His nature would be less of a concern.

For example, I don't subscribe to or believe that the muslim god is real. But, I think we can agree that his nature is different than the God of the Bible. IF the muslim god was the Sovereign God (hypothetically), then our God, no matter how wonderful His nature was, couldn't do anything to save us from that Sovereign God.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So what you mean by ‘sovereign’ is not the same as the Bible means by ‘sovereign’.

Shame! I thought you had it there.

Bummer, I thought you were really interested in participating. The Bible doesn't even use the word sovereign. But, if you had the "correct" definition, that would have been a great place to share it!

God describes Himself to have complete power and to be the "only true and living God" and actually the latter label would be all that was needed for Him to be Absolute Sovereign, if it were true (and it is). He takes responsibility even for things we call evil, because it can't happen unless He allows it. Twice before Jesus died, satan had to ask God permission to mess with His children (Job, Peter). If satan has to ask permission, and satan is considered the leader of our enemies, who is the Absolute Sovereign, if it is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Well, this is why I'm wondering what you mean by sovereign, because what you say right here is a pretty accurate description of how God acts under certain Christians forms of Sovereignty.

The question is usually not so much what God can do, of course he can do anything that doesn't violate his nature, but what he is doing, as in, how he governs his creation, and that is something not everyone agrees on.

I understand what you are saying Loren. But, you said it all in your second paragraph. "The question isn't what God can do, of course He can do anything...."--that only happens if God is Absolutely Sovereign. So, any other discussion happens, because we believe God is Absolute Sovereign and therefore His proclaimed morals matter, His proclaimed love matters, His proclaimed nature matters. If He was mean-natured, we would be in trouble, because He could be sovereignly mean without check. If He was sovereignly arbitrary, we are still in trouble, because we may not be amongst the ones He chooses. And so forth.

But, what you are getting at has been incredibly helpful for me, because I have been working on what I think is my second most important characteristic and you have helped me get there. I was originally thinking "trustworthy", but I think that He is good or that He is merciful is more important, from my perspective.

You mentioned love. How are you defining it? What if I am not among His chosen to love or don't remain in His love? Isn't it more important to know that He is good-natured or merciful, so even if I am not among His chosen or don't abide in His love, I might be able to still get His mercy?

 

[Dave L]

"His Nature" or "His character" encompass everything but His Sovereignty and being self-existent. But, again, if He wasn't absolutely Sovereign, His nature would be less of a concern.

For example, I don't subscribe to or believe that the muslim god is real. But, I think we can agree that his nature is different than the God of the Bible. IF the muslim god was the Sovereign God (hypothetically), then our God, no matter how wonderful His nature was, couldn't do anything to save us from that Sovereign God.

But God's sovereign choices depended on his nature. Without perfect intelligence, his choices would be incoherent.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The love of GOd is the most important characteristic of GOd. That is what God says more or less. "God so loved the world"...NOT "God is so sovereign over the world." In fact, where does God say he is sovereign?

I read that God says that men do not do the will of GOd. That is pretty obvious if one reads the news but the Bible says it as well. Not the sovereignity you likely mean. And GOd has no problem not micromanaging the world. Only those who want him to be responsible for everything they do like that doctrine. I am quite sure God does not like to be blamed for what men do.

Now I think you need to take a closer look at your desire to deeper your clarity. I think you are fooling yourself. You admit you do not want to argue. That means you do not want to engage in any thinking different than your already established view. That means you do not want to deepen your clarity but merely further entrench your thinking in the already prefered view that God is making everyone do everything they do.

Since you do not want to engage with anyone whose view is different, I do not expect an answer. But some truth needs to be injected into the false OP anyway.

I understand your opinion. And you are entitled to your opinion.

So, if a demon professing to love you told you he loved you--that might be sufficient for you--based on what you shared. But it isn't for me.

If your God doesn't have ultimate control to make the end come about that the God of the Bible says will happen, then any outcome is possible and your faith could be in vain, according to Paul. Could the greeks count on their goddess of love that they believed in? Could the romans count on their goddess of love? How about the ephesians and their goddess diana? How about the Egyptians and their sun-god?

For God's love to matter, He has to be able to sovereignly show me that love and fulfill the promises the God of the Bible says He will, without a stronger God who I don't have a relationship with preventing Him from doing so. If God isn't Sovereign, He can only do what the one who is the Absolute Sovereign allows. He needs to be able to do what He says He will. If He isn't Sovereign, He can't. I am not using Sovereign in a way that suggests that He is mean-spirited or evil. I am saying that He has ultimate control.

I never said I was talking about controlling man's decisions as the definition of Sovereign. But, would God claim responsibility, because He allows man to have that free will? Yes, based on what He said to satan in Job 2:3 and yet still ALLOWED satan to do more (again within constraints) to Job. God had a purpose for allowing what He allowed then. And God still has a purpose for everything He allows today. God brought Job to a greater place with him and restored him with double for his trouble. That is Divine Sovereignty! If you don't think the concept of sovereignty (without the word itself) is covered in the Bible, read what God says about Himself in Job 38-42. And, that isn't the only place where God talks about Himself like that!

Personally, I think that human free will is actually support of how amazing and Sovereign God is, because He allows free will--that often runs contrary to Him--and can still make all His promises/prophesies come true. And, that is important to me, because what can I count on if He doesn't have the Sovereign ability to make His promises come true? But, if HE HAS THE SOVEREIGN POWER TO BRING ABOUT EVERYTHING HE PROMISES, WOW! Then, and only then, can I truly look forward, in living hope instead of wishful thinking, to being resurrected with an incorruptible body and living in a place with no more tears, no more suffering, no more death. Because if God is weak and helpless to make all that come about, it is only wishful thinking, not faith that pleases God (Heb 11:6).
The fact that He tells us what He is going to do and--within the fabric of all the free will accommodations--brings what He says will happen to fruition is extraordinary. I can only stand/kneel/drop on my face in complete awe! Jesus Himself predicted He would be killed and then risen. God even foretold how it would happen. And, it still happened just like He said it would, through the free will of man and satan. Why doesn't he get his legs broken, like the other two? Because God said He wouldn't have any broken bones. So, within the free will of man, God arranged for things to happen so that Jesus (the man on the cross) was already clearly dead while the two others were not, so they didn't feel a need to break Jesus' legs. If you could only understand that, really understand that. How amazing is my God to have a Sovereignty that is so above anything we can imagine that He can make things happen that defy nature, that He can bring about a beautiful end for those who love Him, despite the fact that all of us have worked against Him for at least a time. The more I contemplate His Sovereignty, the more I stand in awe. And, yet with that mighty sovereignty and our almost absolute ignorance, He still loves us and even chose to, sacrificially, make a way for us to never have to worry about death! Thank you, Jesus, for taking on yourself what I deserved! Thank you, Father, for having that plan and for speaking the Word on my behalf! Thank you, Holy Spirit, for every amazing part of the plan you have played. I'm so thankful that You continue to lead me into all Truth, counsel me, and assure me that I am His! I stand in awe of You, God!

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

But God's sovereign choices depended on his nature. Without perfect intelligence, his choices would be incoherent.

Again, I understand Dave. Again, I simply say that without sovereignty, you don't necessarily care what his choices are or whether they are coherent. Just like you don't necessarily care what a demon's choices are, because God is infinitely more powerful that a demon and able to work on our behalf because of that Sovereign power my good and merciful and loving and trustworthy and all-knowing and omnipresent and...God has.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Sometimes in life, there are problems that we encounter, some very difficult problems at times. Some problems we dwell on for years, problems that seem to even lack a ready solution.

In the case of the vexing problem of human sin and judgement, the sovereignty and justice of God, demand nothing but the absolute destruction of humanity.

God has already destroyed humanity once, so why is God hesitating to deliver a righteous judgement?

There is only one solution to this paradox, why a just God will not, in fact, deliver true justice.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

There is the solution to the reason why God is reluctant to administer death to all. Just one solution satisfies the equation, because God actually loves us deeply.

The sovereignty of God is not the solution.

God is defined as love. A knowledge of God's sovereignty is beyond question. But only through and with love, can anyone truly understand God Himself. All we can observe is the love of God (Jesus Christ) in spades.

Sovereignty and justice are not synonyms--at least not the way I define sovereignty. Sovereignty is the ability to do what God self-determines is right without being limited by an outside source. That is the quality required for God to make good on any promises. An Absolute Sovereign has to enforce justice. You have no order and no safety, if you establish a set of expectations that all are to comply with and don't ever enforce them. Didn't God enforce those expectations after Adam disobeyed Him? Isn't that at least one reason Jesus died for us? But, Jesus also said "mercy triumphs over justice" indicating that in God's nature, God values being merciful over taking an "eye for an eye". I thank God that He chooses to elevate mercy over judgement. But, it is God who gets to make that choice, because of His Absolute Sovereignty to make that choice without another god or man having the Sovereign power to overrule His judgement that "mercy triumphs over judgement" as being unjust.

I am so glad that God is a God of love. But, a demon could profess his love to you without any power to back what his lying self says. And what good would that do for you?

 

[Loren T.]

I understand what you are saying Loren. But, you said it all in your second paragraph. "The question isn't what God can do, of course He can do anything...."--that only happens if God is Absolutely Sovereign. So, any other discussion happens, because we believe God is Absolute Sovereign and therefore His proclaimed morals matter, His proclaimed love matters, His proclaimed nature matters. If He was mean-natured, we would be in trouble, because He could be sovereignly mean without check. If He was sovereignly arbitrary, we are still in trouble, because we may not be amongst the ones He chooses. And so forth.

But, what you are getting at has been incredibly helpful for me, because I have been working on what I think is my second most important characteristic and you have helped me get there. I was originally thinking "trustworthy", but I think that He is good or that He is merciful is more important, from my perspective.

You mentioned love. How are you defining it? What if I am not among His chosen to love or don't remain in His love? Isn't it more important to know that He is good-natured or merciful, so even if I am not among His chosen or don't abide in His love, I might be able to still get His mercy?

Well, first off, I would reiterate that God has limited himself to doing only what is in his nature to do, so his love in some sense controls the extent of how controlling he is. Love, almost by definition, is not control. So, I don't believe God can make some people love him by control, because his love does not allow him to govern in that way. And a lot of people who stress sovereignty over all else, will get squeamish at that idea. If God is not first of all loving towards his creation, you are correct, we would be in trouble, because we could not know how he would act towards us.

God makes it pretty clear, though, that we have a choice to remain in his love or reject it. Jesus says "remain in me and I will remain in you." And this is something I struggle with too, because I hear people say God's love is unconditional, and I think "But then, why does hell exist?" But I don't believe they are wrong to say his love is unconditional. It's just that God will not bring people to him or cause them to remain if they reject his call, and it wouldn't be loving to force anyone to remain with him. I know this might sound off topic, but I'm trying to explain how I think he loves. God lets those who choose to reject him to be forever separate from him. This is justice, but it's also love. I believe God's presence would be torture for a person who finally and completely chooses to reject him. The problem is, the person is just as tormented by being apart from God. That is hell, IMO. My opinion is, that if God were not loving in an uncontrolling way, the universalist would be right. God would save everyone, BUT many would be saved against their will, so God would forcibly change their will and make them adore him. This is why I don't see sovereignty as control. I won't tell people God is in control, I will tell them God loves them. We are free because God is sovereign, as Tozer said. He will still win in the end, not so much because of his great power, but because love is stronger than hate, and because he has perfect wisdom...hope this makes some sense.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

But God's sovereign choices depended on his nature. Without perfect intelligence, his choices would be incoherent.

the fact that He can make the ultimate choice does not depend on His nature, it depends on His being Sovereign--so that nothing can prevent His choice from coming to fruition.

The choices He makes certainly depend on His nature, just like our choices depend on ours. But, I thank God that I'm not Sovereign and His mercy, goodness, and love can override some of my incoherent bad choices.

If I had perfect knowledge, I still wouldn't have the power to make and keep promises beyond my level of sovereignty, because I am not omnipotent (Absolutely Sovereign). I can make choices, but I can't make a promise of how things are going to be that I can ensure happens just like I said it would.

I agree with you that there is a lot more to God and that all of Him is amazing; but, without Sovereignty to make all that amazingness matter, He would be just another in the vast pool of wanna be gods.

 

[Dave L]

the fact that He can make the ultimate choice does not depend on His nature, it depends on His being Sovereign--so that nothing can prevent His choice from coming to fruition.

The choices He makes certainly depend on His nature, just like our choices depend on ours. But, I thank God that I'm not Sovereign and His mercy, goodness, and love can override some of my incoherent bad choices.

If I had perfect knowledge, I still wouldn't have the power to make and keep promises beyond my level of sovereignty, because I am not omnipotent (Absolutely Sovereign). I can make choices, but I can't make a promise of how things are going to be that I can ensure happens just like I said it would.

I agree with you that there is a lot more to God and that all of Him is amazing; but, without Sovereignty to make all that amazingness matter, He would be just another in the vast pool of wanna be gods.

God needs brains to know what to dictate. Brains = nature = really smart.

 

[Pneuma3]

Question: does not Gods sovereignty and Gods will go hand in hand?



How can God be said to be sovereign if His will is not being done?



They way I see it is that God is sovereign in heaven, and it was Gods sovereign purpose to give man dominion on the earth. In other words man is sovereign on earth.



Thus on earth as of right now Gods will is not being done, which is why Jesus told us to pray to the Father thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.



Thus not until all the kingdoms ( which speak of sovereignty) of this world become the kingdoms of Christ will Gods sovereignty in Heaven be seen and done on earth.



This does not mean God does not work in and with man to bring to pass His sovereignty of heaven on earth.



As the heaven are above the earth, the sovereignty of God is above the sovereignty of man.



Thus all that God has planned in the heavenlies, will come to pass in the earth, Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.



And this is marvelous in my eyes for it is God's sovereign WILL that all will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.