• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Southern Baptist truth founded on sand or biblical truth?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by vanshan, Jun 29, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Diane_Windsor

    Diane_Windsor Senior Contributor

    +468
    Agnostic
    Married
    US-Others
    Read the following:

    Yet with "Tradition" there can be no way to verify if the Apostles or Jesus Christ actually taught doctrine X if we cannot find it in their own writings.

    Diane
    :)
     
  2. ScottBot

    ScottBot Revolutionary

    +1,339
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    FYI, Basil, that is the personal site of Jimmy Akin, one of Roman Catholicism most enlightened apologists and the Director of Apologetics at http://www.catholic.com/media/akin.asp.
     
  3. Lynn73

    Lynn73 Jesus' lamb

    +343
    Christian
    Married

    :thumbsup:
     
  4. Lynn73

    Lynn73 Jesus' lamb

    +343
    Christian
    Married
    I continue to find it amazing that one can lay down the exact Scripture against something next to a Catholic practicing it and they can't see the contradition. It says not to make an image or bow to it. Over here we see the Pope bowing before crowned images of Mary. What's so hard about it? What part of "thou shalt not" don't you understand?

    P.S. A graven image is a graven image whether it be Baal, false gods, Mary, or saints. The Scripture doesn't give exceptions for those, that's just your assumption. It says don't bow, yet Catholics and Popes bow, do you understand yet?
     
  5. ScottBot

    ScottBot Revolutionary

    +1,339
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    The commandment is not to put anything else before God. YOu have no clue what veneration of saints means. It has nothing to do with putting Mary or anyone else on a higher plane than God. Stop incriminating yourself with your ignorance of Catholic or Orthodox doctrine. You are identifying yourself as an ignorant bigot.
     
  6. holeinone

    holeinone Saint Holeinone

    +58
    Protestant
    Married
    One can not argue from silence.

    That is a dangerous precedent

    Sure I can

    , Exodus 20: 4-5 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the likeness of anything in heavens above or on the earth beneath or in the waters underneath the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them.”

    Can you prove that with the word of God?
    Prove the apostles had images they prayed before with the writings of Paul and Peter in the scriptures .

    One does not honor the servant one honors the master.

    The servant has nothing that was not given by the master. Worshp the giver not the gift
    There was also much error and apostacy in the early church , even as early as the letters to the churches we read in scripture.
    You may choose to believe that men can add to the revelation of God, but some of us check every utterance of men ( especially those that they claim Spirit inspired ) by the word of God.
    That is sure, the rest is faith in men .
     
  7. Iollain

    Iollain Jer 18:2-6

    +46
    Pentecostal
    In Relationship

    :amen:
     
  8. holeinone

    holeinone Saint Holeinone

    +58
    Protestant
    Married
    And that Rock is Christ

    1Cr 10:4
    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    1Sa 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God.

    2Sa 22:2 And he said, The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

    2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

    2Sa 22:32 For who [is] God, save the LORD? and who [is] a rock, save our God?

    2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

    Psa 18:31 For who [is] God save the LORD? or who [is] a rock save our God?

    Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.


    Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [/u]


    Peter NEVER claimed any role for himself.

    Hear his words




    1Pe 2:2
    As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


    1Pe 2:3
    If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.


    1Pe 2:4
    To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,


    1Pe 2:5
    Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


    1Pe 2:6
    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


    1Pe 2:7
    Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


    1Pe 2:8
    And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


    1Pe 2:9
    But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Peter had it right, Jesus was the foundation stone, He is the rock of offense. He is our salvation
    The saved are a royal priesthood, they do no longer need a priest to offer sacrifices for them , they have a great High Priest offering daily sacrifices and advocating for them with the Father .

    Peter would refuse what men have made him
     
  9. Sinai

    Sinai Well-Known Member

    +15
    Protestant
    Not according to Southern Baptist doctrine. The sovereign is God--not the individual, not some church leader, but God.
    Mr. Carlton may be referring to Baptists' historical support for religious liberty for all persons. As Dr. Herschel H. Hobbs wrote in his book The Baptist Faith and Message: "[Baptists] insist upon the lordship of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Scriptures. But they also insist that every man shall be free to decide for himself in matters of religion. Baptists have ever been the champions of soul freedom, not for themselves alone but for all men. Thus it is that Baptists believe that a person has the right to be a Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Jew, infidel, atheist, or whatever he chooses to be. Baptists believe that they are under divine compulsion to preach to all men the gospel as they understand it. But they endeavor to win men by persuasion through the power of the Holy Spirit, not through coercion of any kind.

    "So in reality Baptists are the most broad-minded of all people in religion. They grant to every man the right that he shall be free to believe as he wants. But they insist upon the same right for themselves. The moment that a Baptist seeks to coerce another person--even another Baptist--in matters of religion, he violates the basic belief of Baptists."

    This should help explain the other quotations and statements set out in your OP. It might also be noted that Baptists and Protestants are not alone in changing stances or interpretations over the centuries. Perhaps the primary differance is not that changes occur, but rather in the manner the denominations make those changes. Most Christian denominations' policies or creeds tend to be set out by that church's leader or leaders--whether such leader be called a president, priest, prophet, pope or other term (which does not necessarily have to begin with the letter P, by the way). Baptists tend to empower from the bottom up instead of from the top down--but that does not mean that any of those denominations is not under the overall direction of God through the Holy Spirit.

    Again, Mr. Carlton seems to be missing the mark. The objections that many Baptists (and some other Protestants) have to pledging allegiance to a man-made creed or to placing that creed in a higher position than the scriptures themselves is not necessarily that they disagree with any of the contents of that creed. Rather, the objection is with the way creeds and other definitions have historically been used by various churchs and church leaders to coerce others to march in lock step with what that church leader wants them to do and believe. Again, Baptists have historically believed in religious freedom for all people--not in forced dogma.

    And now we finally get to what is apparently really sticking in Mr. Carlton's craw: If individuals have the right to study the scriptures for themselves, to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance, and to think for themselves instead of being required to follow whatever interpretation their church leader dictates, they might come to a different interpretation than Mr. Carlton or some other church leader wants them to believe. I suspect that the Taliban would agree with Mr. Carlton on this point.....
     
  10. elizabethevangeline

    elizabethevangeline Veteran

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    Wow, you managed to read a lot into that quote. I suspect you were just looking for way to jump on your soap box with your own accusations.

    And is referencing the Taliban the new substitute for Nazi?
     
  11. theend0218

    theend0218 Everything is everything.

    659
    +58
    Christian
    Married
    I could not at this point defend Southern Baptists or any other group, but I do think Carlton exaggerates a bit for effect. I think many Protestants have turned to the RCC or Orthodox due to weariness. It is tempting to "fall into the arms" of "the mother church" after all the fighting and bickering that one experiences in some congregations or groups of congregations. The Southern Baptists endured a long battle (it was anything but a holy war) during the late 70s and 80s. The 90s were interesting in that the victors were left to fight among themselves. There is actually a group that is now trying to lead the SBC back to their historical theological roots.

    Now, in all fairness, one can find the same sort of theological battles in the RCC and Orthodox traditions. If you are as well read in your tradition as you appear to be you know this to be true. The difference is this: in the Orthodox tradition the battles were fought over what the fathers taught, and whether or not a disputed current teaching fit or could be made to fit a "consensus" of what the fathers taught (the very fact that it had to often be a consensus reveals the difficulty of depending on the fathers). Instead of fighting over Scripture, the fight was over "the fathers." I do not see this as an improvement to any great extent. The benefit now, I suppose, is that it limits the number of people involved in the fight since most do not now read Greek well enough to join in the battle, leaving the splintering groups to go their own way. Plus, if you are the majority view you can call the other side heretics with a clear conscience (ignoring the fact that they too quoted the fathers in support of their view).
     
  12. vanshan

    vanshan A Sinner

    +313
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Seems like a snide comment; I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

    The only point is that he was very involved in the SBC. He defended it very passionately before becoming Orthodox, so he is not someone with an axe to grind. He just wanted to find the truth.

    Basil
     
  13. Cliff2

    Cliff2 Well-Known Member

    +51
    SDA
    I might add that you have only just touched the tip of the ice-berg.
     
  14. vanshan

    vanshan A Sinner

    +313
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    That's a great point. I wouldn't say that a doctine is true just because it doesn't contradict scripture, or isn't mentioned at all. Once we establish that it doesn't contradict scripture, which is important, we must then move to was it taught from the beginning, was it universally agreed on, etc.

    Luke the Evangelist was the first iconographer and we have many examples of icons throughout the centuries. The seventh ecumenical council in the 8th century, which is well-documented, also put this issue to rest by concluding that the use of icons is fine, in defeat of the iconoclasts. The accusations that this is idolatry or that icons are graven images as condemned in the Old Testament were without merit. This issue was resolved by what was the one Univerasal Church before the major schism of Rome in 1054 A.D., so it was really a consensus of all the Church.

    Basil
     
  15. vanshan

    vanshan A Sinner

    +313
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    This is Protestant revisionism. All historical documents show that the Church was very vibrant, being preserved by the faithful against impossible odds. If it weren't for this dynamic Church Christianity would have shriveled into total obscurity. You owe your own faith to the strong defenders of the faith in the early centuries. Throughout the centuries we see several heresies arise, but all were overcome.

    Basil
     
  16. vanshan

    vanshan A Sinner

    +313
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    The Orthodox Church would condemn anyone following the dictates of a "church leader" unless those teachings were confirmed by the universal Church and shown to be the truths established by Christ and maintained as the deposit of faith passed down from the beginning. We are not the Roman Catholic Church--we don't believe any church leader has the ability to change the truth established by Christ, as I believe the popes have.

    Basil
     
  17. Lynn73

    Lynn73 Jesus' lamb

    +343
    Christian
    Married
    I know what the Word says on the subject and I know what I see. The commandment IS to make no graven images or bow to them. I don't have to know every last jot and tittle of Catholic doctrine (and I know more than enough to reject it) to be able to discern right and wrong. And that's what it's called: discernment, not ignorance. The fact remains that it clearly says not to make images and not to bow before them. Popes and many Catholics do exactly that, plus crown the images. Sorry, but your arguments of "ignorant bigot" are misplaced, and possibley against the rules of CF. I'm a Christian comparing actions and doctrines to the Scriptures, like the men of Berea. I'm going to choose what the Scriptures say.
     
  18. vanshan

    vanshan A Sinner

    +313
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I have no doubt that the strength behind your statements is your sincere faith in Christ, but unfortunately you've been misled by teachings which have developed over the past few hundred years. You think they are in the Bible, but that's just because those writings were misunderstood by you or your teachers. Look at all the writings of all the Christians throughout time, not just since your denomination was created by some man, and I think you would see that many things you think the Bible says are simple, innocent misinterpretations. This is not a judgement of your character, just of a few teachings you've accepted.

    Basil
     
  19. ImSoBlessed

    ImSoBlessed Active Member

    512
    +2
    Non-Denom
    i don't care what your church believes..the Word was made flesh Christ came on the earth as man not as God....he stepped from his throne and embodied a physical being...God doesn't die. doesn't eat doesn't sleep... but Jesus did all those things because he was a man...

    Psa 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

     
  20. Lynn73

    Lynn73 Jesus' lamb

    +343
    Christian
    Married
    He didn't lose His deity by being clothed in flesh. See Colossians 2:9
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...