Southern Baptist truth founded on sand or biblical truth?

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Melethiel

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I didn't say the site was false, just that it covers up information. Like the facts that the emperor of Russia forcibly transplanted the Kiyvan Metropolitan to Russia, but that Constantinople refused to recognize that for a few hundred years, and it was still known as the Kyivan Metropolitanate. Eventually, the Russians in Moscow got together and appointed a Patriarch without the approval of Constantinople, under whose authority the Metropolitanate was. This Patriarchate was not officially recognized for another 500 years or so, when a Russian Patriarch was appointed by the assembly of the other Patriarchs. A few hundred years later, Patriarch Nikon of Moscow undertook extensive reforms to bring the Russian church into accord with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy, as a result of which the Old Believers split off. The very fact that extensive reforms were necessary shows that traditions can indeed creep into the Church without extensive outrage, which is the impression I've gotten from people. All this was long before Communist times, so that fact really has no bearing.

As for my sources, I can find some online, but I'm really quoting from memory from various history books.
 
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vanshan

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Thursday said:
On the other hand, without such an earthly authority, there is no one to stop corruptions from seeping in, if everyone happens to agree that they are not corruptions.

I think you'll find that is much less likely to happen. If one proud, power-hungry branch of the Church, in folly, tries to innovate and change any dogma, that group would simply be reproached and later be subject to anathema, if it were very serious. The Church would not change.

There were some larger heterodox teachings that did threaten the Church, but all were eventually put down, by God's mercy--including the iconoclasts who claimed use icons was idolatry and attempted to rid them from the Church. The seventh council defended the continued use of icons as had been the practice from the beginning.

Basil
 
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vanshan

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Melethiel said:
I didn't say the site was false, just that it covers up information. Like the facts that the emperor of Russia forcibly transplanted the Kiyvan Metropolitan to Russia, but that Constantinople refused to recognize that for a few hundred years, and it was still known as the Kyivan Metropolitanate. Eventually, the Russians in Moscow got together and appointed a Patriarch without the approval of Constantinople, under whose authority the Metropolitanate was. This Patriarchate was not officially recognized for another 500 years or so, when a Russian Patriarch was appointed by the assembly of the other Patriarchs. A few hundred years later, Patriarch Nikon of Moscow undertook extensive reforms to bring the Russian church into accord with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy, as a result of which the Old Believers split off. The very fact that extensive reforms were necessary shows that traditions can indeed creep into the Church without extensive outrage, which is the impression I've gotten from people. All this was long before Communist times, so that fact really has no bearing.

As for my sources, I can find some online, but I'm really quoting from memory from various history books.

I think your information is correct. The status of the Russian Patriarchate was basically in limbo, or not recognized by the whole of Orthodoxy. I'm not familiar with what changes had to be completed to "normalize" it's status, but the fact that it had to change shows how error can be corrected over time. A faulty branch must adhere to Orthodox doctrine or it's not really recognized. Individual branches can fall into error, but it's only a matter of time until that is corrected or it falls completely into schism.

Right now in the Ukraine there's a struggle for an autocephalus Orthodox jurisdication to be formed, as that local church had been under Moscow until the past few years, after it gained independence. The status of the independent Church there is not fully recognized by everyone yet, but eventually the issue will be ironed out. I think there may be two overlapping jurisdictions there now, the Moscow Patriarchate Ukrainian Church and the Independent Ukrainian jurisidiction.

Basil
 
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FreeinChrist said:
No - actually they aren't when they are compared with "vs.". You even stated it was comparison.

Suppose I post a pciture of a guy who got drunk at the festival at St. Katherine's Orthodox church down the street and then wrote "vs." and posted a picture of SBC members doing service for the Lord such as feeding the hungry (an SBC tradition) and teaching the Bible (an SBC tradition) or building homes (also an SBC tradition as you are using the word)?
Is that a fair and valid comparison? No. And neither were yours.




What if I post a bit from an article about how a drunk Orthodox man coming from the festival at St. Katherine's, which is just down the street from me, caused an accident that killed two teens and badly injured another (true story)...and then wrote "vs. " and posted a comparison picture of of SBC members helping the poor at a SBC function? Is that a valid comparison?

Is getting drunk at Orthodox festivals a tradition? If so, why didn't you post a picture of that?



I think your bias is showing.


I showed pictures of two worship services. Are you saying that those pictures do not represent what takes place at Saddleback? Are you saying that those images look bad if not accompanied by "proper" baptist communion pictures? Are you saying that in this instance both images can only be fairly evaluated given an explained context. Are you denying that many churches follow a new "formula" today in order to attract large mumbers.
I have not shown pictures of someone sinning and claimed it was baptist tradtion, like you have in your ludicrous example of the hit and run.


Sorry - not buying that sad excuse. You compared music using guitars with communion. FYI - the SBC does communion too. Why didn't you "compare" with that?


You also stated that I did not back up my assertion that guitars are part of baptist worship. I showed the emphasis of both traditions. Are you denying that music has become the #1 focal point in many churches. Maybe I did not post any communion pictures because I could not find any in saddle back's web page, or any other megachuirch web page. Like I said, I posted what is promoted by each tradition. You should email saddleback and others with youir complaints that they are the ones promoting the wrong things about baptist tradition, even though they are afraid of the word "baptist".


And if there is 'no comparison" - why did you even bother to post the pictures in the way that you did?



There is no comparison between between styles, but both traditions have worship services. So I can't show a pictures of say a cricket match, and say a basketball game, that is against the rules?


What purpose did it serve? All it did that I see is derail the thread.


It obviously upset you also. Enough so for you to consider me unknowledgable about baptist, and just being generally up to no good. You have thrown several accusations in my direction, complaints of unfairness etc, instead of defending the emphasis or the new values of Baptist tradition. You have concentrated on the messenger instead of the message.

So your church doesn't give a homily - so? As you wrote, some do - so why didn't you compare homily to homily?


ok


"If you understand this, blessed are you if you do it" (St. John 13:17).

The most important aspect of this scripture text of our Lord, brethren, is thatthe Lord does not mitigate knowing, but stresses doing. He does not say to the apostles, "Blessed are you when you know this." Some pagan teachers who viewed salvation only in terms of knowledge spoke in this manner. However, our Lord says, "Blessed are you if you do it." The knowledge of salvation was given to us by the Lord Jesus Himself, and no one is able to attain that knowledge through his own efforts."

Where was Rick Warren going with the opening of the sermon? Could it be that he was addressing something that folks understood clearly and then went on to use it to make a point about something spiritual and scriptural? Like how man can do all this and that but still not reach God without Christ?

But you just took a snippet and ignored the context and didn't bother to post where he was going with it. Didn't originally mention that there was prayer and worhip in the service too.


I am sorry if Rick want's me to purchase his sermons. I listened to what he had on offer, and quite frankly was not impressed to pop out the plastic for the word of God preached. I have looked for other megachurch sermons, but the whole thing is rather clandestine. Entire parts of webpages closed off unless you register, some only available for local members to hear or read. That was what I got.


I honestly saw no point in posting of the pictures and your cmments in this last post just confirm my impression of your intent.



 
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Melethiel

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vanshan said:
I think your information is correct. The status of the Russian Patriarchate was basically in limbo, or not recognized by the whole of Orthodoxy. I'm not familiar with what changes had to be completed to "normalize" it's status, but the fact that it had to change shows how error can be corrected over time. A faulty branch must adhere to Orthodox doctrine or it's not really recognized. Individual branches can fall into error, but it's only a matter of time until that is corrected or it falls completely into schism.

Right now in the Ukraine there's a struggle for an autocephalus Orthodox jurisdication to be formed, as that local church had been under Moscow until the past few years, after it gained independence. The status of the independent Church there is not fully recognized by everyone yet, but eventually the issue will be ironed out. I think there may be two overlapping jurisdictions there now, the Moscow Patriarchate Ukrainian Church and the Independent Ukrainian jurisidiction.

Basil
The Moscow Patriarchate was recognized a few hundred years before the reforms were made. I don't remember the exact dates.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Theophorus said:
I showed pictures of two worship services. Are you saying that those pictures do not represent what takes place at Saddleback?Are you saying that those images look bad if not accompanied by "proper" baptist communion pictures?

I was very clear, Theo. You were comparing a picture of guitar playing musicians vs. communion - rather than a far more valid "comparison" of showing Orthodox traition of doing communion to Baptist tradition of doing communion.

It isn't that difficult a concept.
Why don't you show the Orthodox tradition of getting drunk at an Orthodox festival on a Sunday afternoon like at St. Katherine's? If it is done there - it is done everywhere and is tradition, right? (to clarify - i am being facitious here)
Are you denying that music has become the #1 focal point in many churches.

Perhaps it is in "many churches" which would include churches from many denoms- doesn't make it "Baptist tradition." And since when is music not a part of worship? Since when is music that is sung in praise of God not worship? Did David sing to God? Since when can music not be done as prayer?


Maybe I did not post any communion pictures because I could not find any in saddle back's web page, or any other megachuirch web page.

Probably because taking pictures of it would be considered irreverent, and would distract people away from the prayerfulness of it.




It obviously upset you also. Enough so for you to consider me unknowledgable about baptist, and just being generally up to no good. You have thrown several accusations in my direction, complaints of unfairness etc, instead of defending the emphasis or the new values of Baptist tradition. You have concentrated on the messenger instead of the message.


I have been more than clear that it was not a valid comparison and that there was no good reason to post those pictures, and I believe I am absolutely correct in my assessment. No, you don't understand "Baptist tradition". I suggest you go back and read Blackhawk's posts on it, and think again about WHY you wanted to post the pictures.

As for me, I am putting you on ignore. Time to shake the dust off the feet so to speak.
 
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greeker57married

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Dear Blackhawk

Okay. Personally I think there were problems and wrong things done on both sides of the moderate vs. conservative battle for the SBC. I try not to get involved in that too much. What I care about is how the church (SBC churches in particular) are worshipping God. I am going to get my PHD in theology (Systematic or hostorical) and I want to emphasise Trinitarian spiritual formation and spirituality. I think that the SBC and really the church as a whole has negelcted its true calling for a more pragmatic and modern one. Calvin and the puritans believed that the true task, goal and duty of the church was to glorify God through union and communion with the whole Trinity. This is what we need to make our goal. Not fighting over who is in charge and if the Bible is inerrant but living like it is errant and that God is in charge.

Okay that is my rant. Sorry it was not directed at you personally.


Thank you for your response to my post. Yes, I agree there was wrong on both sides. But God was in the conservative resurgence. The reason it was needed was because of the delima dealing with the nature of Sripture. This was important because if you do not have an inerrant (original text) and believe that all the Scripture is the Word of God, then you begin to slip on other issues like the authority of Scripture for one's life. We have a problem with a weaker view of authority even now than we did before the influence of liberal Theology. Evangelism and missions had taken on new meaning that were contrary to Scripture. Yes I agree that Christians should live as the Bible is inerrant and God is in charge. The Liberals continually accused the conservatives of being power hungery. but that was not the issue. The moderates and liberals had gained control and did not want to give it up. I am not saying there were not some who may have been power hungry , but not the majority.

What Baptist need today to live under the authority of the Word of God is to yield to the control and guidance of the Holy Spirit in their lives. They need the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, that is the only way we can live for God.

I recommend to you Dr. Jimmy Draper's book, Authority: The Critical Issue for Southern Baptists 1984. There is also a later updated version.



God Bless you in your service for Him
Greeker
 
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vanshan

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FreeinChrist said:
Why don't you show the Orthodox tradition of getting drunk at an Orthodox festival on a Sunday afternoon like at St. Katherine's? If it is done there - it is done everywhere and is tradition, right? (to clarify - i am being facitious here)

I think you're correct that the pictures weren't comparisons of the same activity, but I think what Theophorus was showing was just two scenes from two different worship services. They weren't comparisons of the same act, but they both took place as part of a religious service in each respective group. We would not be able to find a picture of a rock band in an Orthodox service to compare with the Baptist one, although you can be sure music, dancing, and drinking (hopefully in moderation) can all be found at our festivals. Our festivals are not part of our religious practice, but the rock bands in some contemporary churches have become part of their worship.

Basil
 
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