Southern Baptist truth founded on sand or biblical truth?

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vanshan

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According to an article I just read, written by former Southern Baptist Clark Carlton, who is now Orthodox, a key problem with Protestant, and particularly Southern Baptist, interpretation of the Bible is that they refuse to defend historic truth, preferring to leave interpretation up to each individual or congregation, which has led to their beliefs changing over time. How strong a foundation is the individual and their private interpretation of the Bible? Here's a few quotes from his article found at www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonfirstbaptist.aspx :


“The ultimate concern of Protestantism is neither God nor the Scriptures nor anything that could reasonably be labeled Truth, but rather the absolute sovereignty of the individual. The freedom of the individual was to be defended from any attempt to impose a standard of orthodoxy, even if that standard happened to be the Truth. One Baptist wrote, The very act of credal imposition itself, whether the doctrine is correct or not [emphasis mine], violates long standing religious convictions of Baptists ... .20 In the final analysis, Truth is what each individual says it is, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is a violation of individual freedom.”

“Even confessions of faith adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention cannot be considered binding on either congregations or individuals. The introduction to the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message Statement states plainly that such confessions constitute a consensus of opinion [emphasis mine] of some Baptist body and that they have no authority over the conscience.22 In fact, the drafters of both the 1925 and 1963 statements were explicit in stating the fact that their statements reflected not only a consensus of opinion, but a consensus of opinion at a particular time.”

“Baptists are perfectly free to change their confession of faith whenever and however they see fit: That we do not regard them as complete statements of our faith, having any quality of finality or infallibility. As in the past so in the future Baptists should hold themselves free to revise their statements of faith as may seem to them wise and expedient at any time.

This is no mere rhetorical flourish, for Baptists have indeed changed their confessions of faith through the years. Early Baptist confessions were unmistakably Calvinist in their tone and explicitly affirmed double predestination. This was true of Baptist confessions well into the middle of the 19th century. Somewhere along the line Southern Baptists adopted an Arminian theology of conversion, though they managed to retain the perseverance of the saints.23 By the time the 1923 Statement was published, double predestination had disappeared. Had God changed His mind? Of course not! Baptists would be the first to admit that these statements are nothing more than statements of their beliefs. In the early 19th century the majority of Baptists believed in double predestination; in the late 20th century most do not. What will Baptists believe in the 21st century?”

“The fact that the Nicene Creed and other conciliar definitions of the Church exist threatens the free church Protestant. Why? Because they bear witness to a Faith that is not a matter of individual opinion and is not subject to revision. The content of those symbols is a threat because it is the negation of the very foundation of Protestantism itself: the individual.”

“To the extent that Baptists believe in the divinity of Christ, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection on the third day, and other doctrines of the Church, I rejoice. But this facade of orthodoxy is just that, a superficial framework built upon the shaky foundation of individualism and subjectivism. Many of the mainline Protestant denominations have already collapsed in on themselves and are hardly recognizable as being Christian. It is inevitable that the same thing will happen to evangelicalism, regardless of how conservative it may seem today.24 The size and wealth of the Southern Baptist Convention belies the fact that it is a house built on a foundation of sand.”

“Protestants all claim to interpret the Scripture by the light of the Holy Spirit, and yet they manage to come up with a multitude of different interpretations of the same passage. Now either the Spirit is playing games with these people or there is something wrong with their theological method. After all, Calvinists and Arminians cannot both be right; all the dialectic in the world cannot reconcile two completely irreconcilable doctrines.”



Is truth relative to our own interpretation? What's wrong with Creeds and observing Holy Tradition which have etched in stone the truths Christ himself established, if we can see that these beliefs existed from the beginning?

Basil
 
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Egghead

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Is truth relative to our own interpretation?
absolutely not !

There is one ''truth''
Our job is to find it.

What's wrong with Creeds and observing Holy Tradition
I can think of one tradition right off that isnt in scripture and would seem to defy it.
which have etched in stone the truths Christ himself established
Jesus spoke nothing of bowing to an image of His earthly mother.
if we can see that these beliefs existed from the beginning?
We are warned in scripture that false prophets and wolves would be there from the beginning as well, and striking the flock from within seemingly.
So "existed from the beginning" means little to nothing.

 
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vanshan

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MikeMcK said:
As a deacon and Bible teacher in a Southern Baptist church, I disagree.

I mean disagreement, but no disrespect by this post.

Mr. Carlton attended Southern Baptist seminary and preached in various churches as a "supply" preacher. His article linked in my post if a fair and thoughtful reflection on his experiences and interpretation of Southern Baptist doctrine. Please read it.

Basil
 
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vanshan

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Egghead said:

absolutely not !

There is one ''truth''
Our job is to find it.


I can think of one tradition right off that isnt in scripture and would seem to defy it.

Jesus spoke nothing of bowing to an image of His earthly mother.

We are warned in scripture that false prophets and wolves would be there from the beginning as well, and striking the flock from within seemingly.
So "existed from the beginning" means little to nothing.


Of course, by Holy Tradition I mean those preserved in the Orthodox Church; I think major corruption has occurred in the "Holy Traditions" of the Roman Catholic Church, much of which was passed down into Protestantism. Both were far removed from the teachings of the Christian east at the time of reformation.

As far as honoring Mary in images, there is no scriptural foundation for condemning it. You can say it's not explicitly taught, but you cannot claim it's wrong. Like the form of worship established by Christ and the Apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit, honoring the saints is not contained in the canonized books, but is it counter-Christ? No way. We honor those who were great servants of Christ, glowing with the presence of God's Spirit in them. This is why they are honored.

If you use the Bible alone, you'll miss much of what Christ established--they didn't write a play by play of everthing that happened. There were many teachings and practices being taught that can be found in other very early writing and that have been preserved since the beginning by the Body of Christ. The Bible is a witness of the gospel, but not an encyclopedia of every event of apostolic times.

Basil
 
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vanshan

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Egghead said:
We are warned in scripture that false prophets and wolves would be there from the beginning as well, and striking the flock from within seemingly.
So "existed from the beginning" means little to nothing.


“It is the absolute height of blasphemy to suggest that the Church could be restored or recovered as if in some point in history She had ever been lost. If the Church has ever ceased to exist, even for a millisecond, it would mean that Christ had failed to do what He said He came to do: bring Life to the world. This is so because the Church is not simply a human institution, however religious or good. She is the Body of Christ inseparably united to Her Head. If the Church ceased to exist, Christ would cease to exist!"

This is quoted from the same article. It's a common myth that as soon as Jesus ascended the Church fell into error sometime after the Book of Acts ends. The reason this myth exists is that the traditions practiced from the beginning are in direct opposition to Protestant worship, so many simply assume the early church must have veered off course, but which is more likely: the early Church fell into error right after the Book of Acts was finished or the Protestants who just developed the worship and theology they uphold over the past 500 years may be off course?

Basil
 
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MikeMcK

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vanshan said:
I mean disagreement, but no disrespect by this post.

Mr. Carlton attended Southern Baptist seminary and preached in various churches as a "supply" preacher. His article linked in my post if a fair and thoughtful reflection on his experiences and interpretation of Southern Baptist doctrine. Please read it.

Basil

Actually, I did read it. Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said that I disagreed.

How could I disagree with it if I hadn't read it?
 
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vanshan

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MikeMcK said:
Actually, I did read it. Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said that I disagreed.

How could I disagree with it if I hadn't read it?

Sorry, your post was vague. I thought you disagreed with the part I posted or the premise that the Bapist doctrines are founded on a foundation of sand.

Basil
 
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ImSoBlessed

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vanshan said:
Of course, by Holy Tradition I mean those preserved in the Orthodox Church; I think major corruption has occurred in the "Holy Traditions" of the Roman Catholic Church, much of which was passed down into Protestantism. Both were far removed from the teachings of the Christian east at the time of reformation.

As far as honoring Mary in images, there is no scriptural foundation for condemning it. You can say it's not explicitly taught, but you cannot claim it's wrong. Like the form of worship established by Christ and the Apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit, honoring the saints is not contained in the canonized books, but is it counter-Christ? No way. We honor those who were great servants of Christ, glowing with the presence of God's Spirit in them. This is why they are honored.

If you use the Bible alone, you'll miss much of what Christ established--they didn't write a play by play of everthing that happened. There were many teachings and practices being taught that can be found in other very early writing and that have been preserved since the beginning by the Body of Christ. The Bible is a witness of the gospel, but not an encyclopedia of every event of apostolic times.

Basil
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

Deu 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.


thats why you don't worship anybody but God...i got more scriptures on it if you need it...

 
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vanshan

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ImSoBlessed said:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deu 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

thats why you don't worship anybody but God...i got more scriptures on it if you need it...

Are you suggesting that by honoring those people whom God has honored and filled with His Holy Spirit, making them a beacon of Christ, is making them a god? That doesn't make sense to me, but I respect your right to believe it.

Would you also scold God's people in the Old Testament who made graven images for the temple God commanded them to build? You are twisting these scriptures to make them fit your beliefs. They are referring to making statues of Baal or any other false god, not godly images of the Church. The point is not that we cannot make any images, just that we can't make images of false gods to worship. I promise we don't do that. [I pray that I'd be strengthened to wear the crown of martyrdom rather than do that.] We also don't see the saints as gods, they are just godly people who we honor.

Basil
 
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Melethiel

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The Church should be guided by the Traditions of the Early Fathers, not by whatever contemporary notions creep into our heads. I do think however, that Tradition should be tested against Scripture, to make sure that no false traditions have crept in (as is witnessed in the RCC). Personally, I feel very uncomfortable praying to Mary and the Saints, though I agree that they should be honored.

I used to be Southern Baptist, I agree that they are constantly shifting.
 
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Iollain

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vanshan said:
As far as honoring Mary in images, there is no scriptural foundation for condemning it. You can say it's not explicitly taught, but you cannot claim it's wrong. Like the form of worship established by Christ and the Apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit, honoring the saints is not contained in the canonized books, but is it counter-Christ? No way. We honor those who were great servants of Christ, glowing with the presence of God's Spirit in them. This is why they are honored.
Basil


Basil, guess what? It's wrong.

http://www.cin.org/akathis.html

Scuse me i have to go put on a praise and worship cd, don't feel very good.
 
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vanshan

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ImSoBlessed said:
you guys call mary mother of god but she is not the Mother of God...when she had Jesus he was man...he came to this earth as a man not as God....

Your innocently espousing the vile heresy of Nestorianism. The Church which is our common heritage strongly condemned this teaching. Jesus was fully God and fully man from the day He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Be careful.

Basil
 
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vanshan

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Iollain said:
Basil, guess what? It's wrong.

http://www.cin.org/akathis.html

Scuse me i have to go put on a praise and worship cd, don't feel very good.

I didn't do a comparison with an Orthodox text, but that's a link to a Roman Catholic website. It seems fairly similar though. Do you have specific objections? We do highly honor Mary as the greatest of all saints. God honored her by using her to birth the Messiah. She was treated with the greatest respect by all the Apostles and the Church ever since.

Basil
 
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Diane_Windsor

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vanshan said:
Mr. Carlton attended Southern Baptist seminary and preached in various churches as a "supply" preacher. His article linked in my post if a fair and thoughtful reflection on his experiences and interpretation of Southern Baptist doctrine. Please read it.

Basil

And we're supposed to be impressed that he attended a SBC seminary?? :confused:

Diane
 
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