Souls in the unborn.

[RaymondG]

If your body doesn't have a human spirit Raymond, then you are obviously dead.
So, I hope I am conversing to someone who is well and truly alive?

I live, nevertheless not I, but Christ lives in me.

 

[Francis Drake]

Before conception God knows our individual spirit.

God knows the end from the beginning because He dwells outside of time.

Our spirit isn't suddenly born at conception,

Yes it is. That's the only explanation that scripture allows.

but instead God places the spirit He already knows into us after the new developing body is ready, it appears is one possible way the mystery may be.

There's nothing anywhere in scripture that supports God providing a fresh new spirit for each person.
In point of fact, for the curse of Adam to pass down the generations, it is essential that our complete body, soul, and human spirit, must all descend from Adam via our two parents.

In your version, if God places a new spirit in a prepared body, then that new person would be born completely free of Adam's. sin, and David is talking nonsense when he writes.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[Halbhh]

God knows the end from the beginning because He dwells outside of time.

Yes it is. That's the only explanation that scripture allows.

There's nothing anywhere in scripture that supports God providing a fresh new spirit for each person.
In point of fact, for the curse of Adam to pass down the generations, it is essential that our complete body, soul, and human spirit, must all descend from Adam via our two parents.

In your version, if God places a new spirit in a prepared body, then that new person would be born completely free of Adam's. sin, and David is talking nonsense when he writes.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Have you read listening (quiet and listening) to the wonderful Psalm 51 in full? Without our thinking about doctrines, issues, stuff. But really just listening. It's such a blessing.

David has committed adultery and then basically had the husband killed also....

But in other ways we've all done our own serious wrongs.... This humble contrition, undoing of pride....It's so good.

Psalm 51 NIV

Let's pray this prayer sometimes.

 

[Francis Drake]

Have you read listening (quiet and listening) to the wonderful Psalm 51 in full? Without our thinking about doctrines, issues, stuff. But really just listening. It's such a blessing.

Yes. My wife and I are currently reading the Psalms one at a time to each other every morning before we get up.
We read Ps51 a few days ago and are now on Ps119.

David has committed adultery and then basically had the husband killed also....

But David also knew that his sinfulness was already there at conception.
5Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
The above proves that David's spirit could not possibly have been supplied fresh from God at conception. If that had been the case, it would start off in perfection, instead of the fallen state David acknowledges.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes. My wife and I are currently reading the Psalms one at a time to each other every morning before we get up.
We read Ps51 a few days ago and are now on Ps119.

But David also knew that his sinfulness was already there at conception.
5Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
The above proves that David's spirit could not possibly have been supplied fresh from God at conception. If that had been the case, it would start off in perfection, instead of the fallen state David acknowledges.

I like it y'all are reading the Palms. I've been also by coincidence, on the way through the OT again.

Did you see post #59?

 

[Francis Drake]

We were given a soul at conception. There is scripture supporting that.

If we were given a soul from God at conception, it would obviously have been absolutely perfect which David denies in your verse below.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

From the moment, we were conceived we inherited Adam's sin, which was passed down to all mankind.

​

How can a soul which comes directly from God inherit Adam's sin?
The only way our souls can inherit sin is if the souls are a product of our parents, just as our physical bodies prove.
​

This is why we fight against abortion. Human life began at conception. So, we can even say, I was once a fetus....I was once an embryo.....and God knew me when I was a fetus or an embryo.

Absolutely!

In creating us from the womb, God had infused a soul into us at conception.

Absolutely not!

Everyone knows that a son or daughter's inherent physical characteristics, facial shapes, tone of voice, colour of hair, etc. are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.

We also know that a son or daughter's "gifts" or "talents" (eg. music, art, mechanics) are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.

Nobody in their right mind would claim that these gifts or talents are contained in our muscles or belly, would they?
No, we accept that they belong in a child's soul, where the mind is seated.

If these things are inherited, then they come in the egg and the sperm.
If the soul was added at conception from God, then it would have neither their talents nor that sin nature from our parents!

 

[Selene03]

If we were given a soul from God at conception, it would obviously have been absolutely perfect which David denies in your verse below.

How can a soul which comes directly from God inherit Adam's sin?
The only way our souls can inherit sin is if the souls are a product of our parents, just as our physical bodies prove.
​

Absolutely!

Absolutely not!

Everyone knows that a son or daughter's inherent physical characteristics, facial shapes, tone of voice, colour of hair, etc. are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.

We also know that a son or daughter's "gifts" or "talents" (eg. music, art, mechanics) are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.

Nobody in their right mind would claim that these gifts or talents are contained in our muscles or belly, would they?
No, we accept that they belong in a child's soul, where the mind is seated.

If these things are inherited, then they come in the egg and the sperm.
If the soul was added at conception from God, then it would have neither their talents nor that sin nature from our parents!

The fact that David claimed he was sinful since conception means that He had a soul since conception. According to Scripture, sin was passed down from Adam to mankind. Sin is not the human body.

 

[Francis Drake]

I like it y'all are reading the Palms. I've been also by coincidence, on the way through the OT again.

Did you see post #59?

No I missed 59, but your verse doesn't mean what you think.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Adam's body, not mine, came from the ground.
My body came from Adam via Noah and ultimately my grandparents and two parents.

Adam's spirit came from God When God breathed on him.​

My spirit came from God, via my parents, grandparents...…………...via Noah...…………..via Adam, after God breathed on him!

ie. My body, soul, and spirit, all three together were inherited from my parents etc.

 

[Francis Drake]

The fact that David claimed he was sinful since conception means that He had a soul since conception. According to Scripture, sin was passed down from Adam to mankind. Sin is not the human body.

Exactly. Sin is not the human body, therefore sin must be in the spirit/soul.
If God implants a soul/spirit ,fresh from heaven, into a new conception, how can it contain sinfulness?

 

[Francis Drake]

G'night folks, it's 10.55pm this side of the pond and I'm off for some shuteye.

 

[Halbhh]

No I missed 59, but your verse doesn't mean what you think.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Adam's body, not mine, came from the ground.
My body came from Adam via Noah and ultimately my grandparents and two parents.

Adam's spirit came from God When God breathed on him.​

My spirit came from God, via my parents, grandparents...…………...via Noah...…………..via Adam, after God breathed on him!

ie. My body, soul, and spirit, all three together were inherited from my parents etc.

Ok, I hear that idea, but it doesn't seem to agree with the Ecclesiastes verse, which is just straightforwardly saying we each get a spirit from God, which returns to Him when this body dies.

But it can help to look at many translations sometimes, so just looking at Biblehub:

English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Berean Study Bible
before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

New American Standard Bible
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

International Standard Version
then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.

NET Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it.

New Heart English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

New American Standard 1977
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the dust returns to the earth as it was before and the spirit returns unto God who gave it.

King James 2000 Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

American King James Version
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

American Standard Version
and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
before the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

Darby Bible Translation
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

English Revised Version
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

World English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Young's Literal Translation
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
---------

They are very much alike (occasionally they aren't and then it's good to dig deeper on the translation).

I suppose simply that for the idea we merely inherit adam's spirit only, not a unique spirit for each of us...doesn't fit Jer 1:5 as best I can tell.

English Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Berean Study Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

New American Standard Bible
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Contemporary English Version
"Jeremiah, I am your Creator, and before you were born, I chose you to speak for me to the nations."

Good News Translation
"I chose you before I gave you life, and before you were born I selected you to be a prophet to the nations."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

International Standard Version
"I knew you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart for me before you were born; I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

NET Bible
"Before I formed you in your mother's womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

New Heart English Bible
"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

JPS Tanakh 1917
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, And before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

New American Standard 1977
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the Gentiles.

King James 2000 Bible
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

American King James Version
Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

American Standard Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee; I appointed thee a prophet to the nations.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Darby Bible Translation
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I hallowed thee, I appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

English Revised Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

Webster's Bible Translation
Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee; and before thou wast born I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.

World English Bible
"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Young's Literal Translation
'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'

=================
God knew Elijah before his physical being began it says.

As distinct from other people.

An individual, Elijah, a distinct spirit/soul/person. Not the same as some other person.

G'night folks, it's 10.55pm this side of the pond and I'm off for some shuteye.

Good night.

 

[Francis Drake]

Ok, I hear that idea, but it doesn't seem to agree with the Ecclesiastes verse, which is just straightforwardly saying we each get a spirit from God, which returns to Him when this body dies.

But it can help to look at many translations sometimes, so just looking at Biblehub:

I use Biblehub all the time for my posts.

King James 2000 Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
………....
They are very much alike (occasionally they aren't and then it's good to dig deeper on the translation).

I agree, they all say the same, but it still doesn't help you.
The verse makes two points, both of which must be interpreted with the same methodology.
1).

Your human spirit comes directly from God in Heaven.​

2).

Your human body comes directly from the dust of the earth.​

​

If you insist that a brand new human spirit from Heaven was inserted by God at conception or birth, then you must also accept that your human body was made directly from mud in your mother's womb! lol.
I suspect that most women would object to the idea of mud in their womb!​

I suppose simply that for the idea we merely inherit Adam's spirit only, not a unique spirit for each of us.

​

You clearly misunderstand what I have been saying as every human spirit is completely unique, just as our bodies are unique.
We are all descendants of Adam physically, and that includes the black, white, yellow, brown people groups. Despite how ethnic groups differ today, the roots of all our skin colours still go back to Adam's skin.
So why are we not all replicas of Adam and identical to each other? I'll leave details of that answer to others.
But in exactly the same way that all our bodily inheritances are subdivisions of Adam, so is the inheritance of our spirit man. Every human spirit is unique, just as every human body is unique.
​

..doesn't fit Jer 1:5 as best I can tell.
New American Standard Bible
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
=================

God created time, and dwells outside of it, therefore his foreknowledge of man, past and future, always appears as present tense.
Paul states-
Romans8v29because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.
God foreknew before the creation of time all who would respond to the conviction of His Spirit. On the basis of that, God foreordained all a future in Him.
God does not foreordain a role to those who would reject it.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Halbhh]

God created time, and dwells outside of it,

I see. This is an idea I've seen in recent years, and see this idea as another of a variety of reasonable guesses about how to understand some deep questions I consider mystery -- what God foresees, and what amount of free will He has given us, a lot or a little or none.

That whole complex, all the various sides of one question: to what extent do we have any individual choice or responsibility or cooperation. I'm not at all in the group that guesses we have no choice, that grace is irresistible, because that does clearly contradict scripture in that scripture presents us with real choices, very directly and insistently, and so I expect we do have real choice, and that means our future actions are not already predetermined.

I'm always content to realize there are some things we cannot know.

I'm comfortable with this reality that there are true and real mysteries which we will not know yet -- just as Paul points to in 1 Cor chapter 13.

To me this is very inevitable seeming also -- that we cannot encompass all mystery -- that we cannot pin down all things about God -- Isaiah chapter 55.

Finally, perhaps you already noticed above, but I feel it's very likely the soul is already present in babies in the womb (just to be sure you didn't miss that's my view already, past tense and continuing).

But, I still don't think it's seeming at all likely God would place a soul into a dying fertilized egg (conception moment).

He Himself in His awesome power and knowledge, above ours, superior to us, above us, not on our level, but a higher level -- He can see which such eggs will continue and which will die very soon -- to put a soul in a dying fertilized egg I feel is not in accord with His nature as revealed in scripture.
(note though that we should not assume every person that believes the soul is present at "conception" actually considers that to includes such non-viable fertizlied eggs (!)....Instead they may be meaning only viable fertilized eggs -- only the 1/2 of conceptions(!) -- that actually will make it, for all we know, in their one person individual viewpoint. We won't know they mean non-viable conceptions unless they say so...) Again, just as before, my own view about non-viable conceptions not yet having a soul is a guess. I don't presume to know. He would know. We do not know. Again, as above already, if personally in some fraught situation (as the example I gave earlier), I'd pray for guidance.

 

[Francis Drake]

I see. This is an idea I've seen in recent years, and see this idea as another of a variety of reasonable guesses about how to understand some deep questions I consider mystery

God being outside of time is no more a guess than is the concept of "Trinity", a word not mentioned in scripture.

BTW, I appreciate that you don't just accept odd notions without examination, I likewise don't put forward ideas without first deeply considering them. My study of scripture is always prayerful and that's where my best thoughts originate.

But I can be very mischievous at times if I want to prove a point.-
Many years ago at a Pentecostal church I attended, I was asked to lead a Sunday evening discussion group.
The subject I chose was the "character of God".
By subtly leading them, I managed to get a good consensus of how the group saw God's character.
As we ended, I quoted their collective perceptions of God's character, to which they all heartily agreed.
"Congratulations" I said, "You have just described Allah, the God of Islam!"

They were shocked, horrified, and deeply embarrassed as I laid out their folly! But it showed exactly how bad their comprehension was, and how that influenced how they read scripture.
Even the pastor swallowed it hook line and sinker.

But similarly, much of the characteristics of God we see on this forum would suit Allah better than Jahweh!

-- what God foresees, and what amount of free will He has given us, a lot or a little or none.

That whole complex, all the various sides of one question: to what extent do we have any individual choice or responsibility or cooperation. I'm not at all in the group that guesses we have no choice, that grace is irresistible, because that does clearly contradict scripture in that scripture presents us with real choices, very directly and insistently, and so I expect we do have real choice, and that means our future actions are not already predetermined.

I think we are in agreement here.

I'm always content to realize there are some things we cannot know.

Agreed, but many things we should know are hid from our eyes because of unbelief.

I'm comfortable with this reality that there are true and real mysteries which we will not know yet -- just as Paul points to in 1 Cor chapter 13.

I'm not sure that's the point Paul is making there.

To me this is very inevitable seeming also -- that we cannot encompass all mystery -- that we cannot pin down all things about God -- Isaiah chapter 55.

Again I cannot see this in Isaiah55

 

[Halbhh]

God being outside of time is no more a guess than is the concept of "Trinity", a word not mentioned in scripture.

BTW, I appreciate that you don't just accept odd notions without examination, I likewise don't put forward ideas without first deeply considering them. My study of scripture is always prayerful and that's where my best thoughts originate.

But I can be very mischievous at times if I want to prove a point.-
Many years ago at a Pentecostal church I attended, I was asked to lead a Sunday evening discussion group.
The subject I chose was the "character of God".
By subtly leading them, I managed to get a good consensus of how the group saw God's character.
As we ended, I quoted their collective perceptions of God's character, to which they all heartily agreed.
"Congratulations" I said, "You have just described Allah, the God of Islam!"

They were shocked, horrified, and deeply embarrassed as I laid out their folly! But it showed exactly how bad their comprehension was, and how that influenced how they read scripture.
Even the pastor swallowed it hook line and sinker.

But similarly, much of the characteristics of God we see on this forum would suit Allah better than Jahweh!

I think we are in agreement here.

Agreed, but many things we should know are hid from our eyes because of unbelief.

I'm not sure that's the point Paul is making there.

Again I cannot see this in Isaiah55

Well, for Isaiah chapter 55, one of the greater jewels in all the Old Testament, I hesitate to just take the verses out, so instead I want to continue to read it as a whole, but I do learn His thoughts are not just more high than ours, but vastly higher than ours. Even our ideas are poor attempts to understand -- they are rich to us, but poor compared to what actually is, and is to come.

I mean we can feel we understand, but it is "in part" as Paul said (1 Cor 13). See -- to realize your correct ideas, this or that, trinity, and more, are not the same as the "know in full", because we don't yet already have (we are like Paul at best, under the spirit but still in this limited body) the "full". Not yet.

Paul is accurately writing not only that love is the only redeeming action for all other actions we think to do, but also he is telling us that we are still in the "in part" world, and the complete is still to come.

 

[Francis Drake]

Finally, perhaps you already noticed above, but I feel it's very likely the soul is already present in babies in the womb (just to be sure you didn't miss that's my view already, past tense and continuing).

Agreed, the soul must be present in the womb.

But, I still don't think it's seeming at all likely God would place a soul into a dying fertilized egg (conception moment).

But there's no scriptural basis whatsoever to God placing souls from heaven into any egg or fetus.

He Himself in His awesome power and knowledge, above ours, superior to us, above us, not on our level, but a higher level -- He can see which such eggs will continue and which will die very soon -- to put a soul in a dying fertilized egg I feel is not in accord with His nature as revealed in scripture.

This is so wrong, completely denying the very basics of scripture, including what Jesus tells Nicodemus.
Jn3v3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If each man has a fresh spirit from God in heaven, then it is already perfect and untainted by Adam's sin. It cannot be fallen and does not need to be born again!​

But Jesus says tells Nicodemus he must be born again, because all mankind has inherited Adam's sin via his soul and spirit which unless born again will never see the Kingdom of God.
The Adamic sin nature cannot be about man's physical body because that gets left behind and rots in the ground.

Again, read what Paul says.

1Cor15v22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

How can we all die in Adam if we get a brand new soul or spirit from God before we are born?

(note though that we should not assume every person that believes the soul is present at "conception" actually considers that to includes such non-viable fertizlied eggs (!)....Instead they may be meaning only viable fertilized eggs -- only the 1/2 of conceptions(!) -- that actually will make it, for all we know, in their one person individual viewpoint. We won't know they mean non-viable conceptions unless they say so...) Again, just as before, my own view about non-viable conceptions not yet having a soul is a guess. I don't presume to know. He would know. We do not know. Again, as above already, if personally in some fraught situation (as the example I gave earlier), I'd pray for guidance.

This gives a perfect spiritual excuse for the evils of abortion!

 

[Francis Drake]

Well, for Isaiah chapter 55, one of the greater jewels in all the Old Testament, I hesitate to just take the verses out, so instead I want to continue to read it as a whole, but I do learn His thoughts are not just more high than ours, but vastly higher than ours. Even our ideas are poor attempts to understand -- they are rich to us, but poor compared to what actually is, and is to come.

I mean we can feel we understand, but it is "in part" as Paul said (1 Cor 13). See -- to realize your correct ideas, this or that, trinity, and more, are not the same as the "know in full", because we don't yet already have (we are like Paul at best, under the spirit but still in this limited body) the "full". Not yet.

Paul is accurately writing not only that love is the only redeeming action for all other actions we think to do, but also he is telling us that we are still in the "in part" world, and the complete is still to come.

I'm sorry, but you really are taking a coward's way out, instead of addressing my posts and my scriptures, you hide behind a screen.

Here's a counterbalance to your verses.
Prov25v2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

2Tim2v15Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James1v15But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm sorry, but you really are taking a coward's way out, instead of addressing my posts and my scriptures, you hide behind a screen.

Here's a counterbalance to your verses.
Prov25v2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

2Tim2v15Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James1v15But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

I fear God, see, so I won't add to scripture.

See, I read those scriptures as part of a whole, reading through the entire full books, listening, and getting their meaning in context.

When I speculate I own it as a speculation, and don't imagine it's scripture. That's important to remember to do, else one is adding to scripture.

At least your speculation (as I see it being) is logically consistent though. God bless you and have a good evening.

 

[Francis Drake]

I fear God, see, so I won't add to scripture.

Nobody is adding to scripture.

See, I read those scriptures as part of a whole, reading through the entire full books, listening, and getting their meaning in context.

That is exactly what I have done from the beginning.

The idea that God has a reserve if spirits or souls in heaven is never ever mentioned in scripture, and those who claim it are definitely adding to scripture.

Scripture clearly describes God creating Eve by removing a part of Adam, the result being a wife entirely compatible with him because she originated in him.
The description of making Eve excludes God breathing into her as He did Adam, therefore it is entirely consistent with scripture to presume she got body, soul and spirit, from Adam.
That statement adds nothing to scripture!
In contrast, to claim God secretly breathed into Eve would definitely be adding to scripture.

Even without modern scientific proof, we all know children inherit their grandparents' and parents' physical, emotional, and mental characteristics.
We also know that our emotional and mental characteristics are part of the human soul/spirit, not the physical body.
This fact alone eliminates the possibility of God inserting a brand new soul/spirit in a child

Scripture also states clearly that we inherit Adam's sinful nature.
This fact alone eliminates the idea of God inserting a brand new spirit/soul into a child.

None of the above adds to scripture.​

When I speculate I own it as a speculation, and don't imagine it's scripture. That's important to remember to do, else one is adding to scripture.

At least your speculation (as I see it being) is logically consistent though. God bless you and have a good evening.

 

[Halbhh]

Nobody is adding to scripture.

That is exactly what I have done from the beginning.

The idea that God has a reserve if spirits or souls in heaven is never ever mentioned in scripture, and those who claim it are definitely adding to scripture.

Well, if someone claimed scripture says there is a pool or reserve of individuals spirits waiting to be put into bodies, that would be adding to scripture. If that happened.

When someone says "seems" or "appears" or "may mean" or any of very many ways to say that they are only presenting their own viewpoint, that isn't adding to scripture of course.

Another thing to consider -- I do not think various doctrines are scriptural only because they are widely believed or presented forcefully, etc. Scripture itself is scriptural. All of our doctrines which aren't direct simple paraphrases of scripture (and therefore are theories) are in the category of 'might-be-right'/'might-be-wrong'. I don't judge people for believing in them, but often they do raise questions as so many, hundreds, simply appear to directly contradict something in scripture. But...

But...I think Paul is entirely saying truth in 1 Cor 13, when he wrote "We know in part" -- that we really do not yet know in full. As you can see in the chapter, he doesn't mean only to know another person, but also knowledge/understanding/mysteries. We just don't have the ability to cancel those verses in Isaiah chapter 55 is my view. What is revealed to us, directly and clearly in the New Testament, are deep things that had not yet been known before, and with faith and true listening we can even hear them (as they simply say, with hearing, to hear and not discount/avoid/ignore/etc., so that 'love your enemy' actually really does mean what it uncomfortably says, plainly.) So, I take it for granted that people will all have all sorts of reasonable guesses that are some partly right, and some partly wrong, but that's normal to believers. What we can do, that not all people can, is actually hear and get what Christ is saying, if we have ears to hear, an ability to be humble enough to really listen to Him.

So, see, I don't even worry about all the speculative theories, doctrines. They are inevitable, and I don't take them very seriously, but of course we do have to sometimes deal with them, because others want to impose their doctrines onto us, or are wrongly judging based on doctrines, in direct disobedience and opposition to Christ, Who clearly and plainly tells us not to judge. Wonderfully He forgives us though if we confess/repent, with amazing grace and mercy.

Scripture clearly describes God creating Eve by removing a part of Adam, the result being a wife entirely compatible with him because she originated in him.
The description of making Eve excludes God breathing into her as He did Adam, therefore it is entirely consistent with scripture to presume she got body, soul and spirit, from Adam.
That statement adds nothing to scripture!
In contrast, to claim God secretly breathed into Eve would definitely be adding to scripture.

Even without modern scientific proof, we all know children inherit their grandparents' and parents' physical, emotional, and mental characteristics.
We also know that our emotional and mental characteristics are part of the human soul/spirit, not the physical body.
This fact alone eliminates the possibility of God inserting a brand new soul/spirit in a child

Scripture also states clearly that we inherit Adam's sinful nature.
This fact alone eliminates the idea of God inserting a brand new spirit/soul into a child.

None of the above adds to scripture.​

Did you see post #45? To me, if I understand you, the idea that Eve's own individual spirit was only a copy of Adam's -- e.g. akin to a copier machine copy of his -- seems highly speculative, and not based in plain scriptural meaning anywhere I know of; Did you read post #45? Now, maybe it would be ok to think Eve has no truly individual spirit of her own from God as you speculate (if I can understand your meaning) -- maybe that might be ok to imagine or speculate on (maybe....maybe not) -- so long as you remember it was a guess, and don't try to elevate it into being scripture.

Now, if there is a scripture plainly saying Eve's spirit is only a copy of Adam's, though, I'd be genuinely delighted to see it, and I mean that, but I'm trusting you know I should only understand verse(s) in their full context and only think and believe they mean what they do as part of a whole, often full passages, sometimes needing the full book. (helpfully though I routinely read through full books in the Bible, so it will be what I'm used to there)