"Soul Sleep"; Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[BobRyan]

The point that remains is that God can choose to take to heaven anyone he wants, when ever he wants. Who are you to say otherwise ? he took Moses and if he took the raised with Christ than that just proves he can take who ever when ever he wants.

The Bible detail you are glossing over is that when God takes them to heaven -- he first resurrects them.

And the reason that this is true is that the Bible tells the truth in 1Thess 4 and in John 11 about the saints being asleep in death.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

The Bible detail you are glossing over is that when God takes them to heaven -- he first resurrects them.

And the reason that this is true is that the Bible tells the truth in 1Thess 4 and in John 11 about the saints being asleep in death.

So you want to quote non biblical scriptures then? like about moses? ok let's start quoting the book of enoch too because Jude quotes from it. So aborted babies where do those go? And why don't you read 1 Thess 4:14, who is God bringing with him? The truth Is that it's not so black and white, there are many things that we can't be sure of so we need to stop talking like we know 100%.

 

[BobRyan]

So you want to quote non biblical scriptures then?

When the book of Jude turns into "not the bible" -- let us know.

When John 11 and Matthew 22 and 1Thess 4 turn into "not the Bible" -- let us know.

Until then -- "Give me the Bible AND The Words IN the Bible"

 

[YHWH's Lion]

When the book of Jude turns into "not the bible" -- let us know.

When John 11 and Matthew 22 and 1Thess 4 turn into "not the Bible" -- let us know.

Until then -- "Give me the Bible AND The Words IN the Bible"

Moses is in heaven because of bodily resurrection and bodily assumption of Moses into heaven as recorded in the book "the Assumption of Moses" - quoted in the book of Jude.

Does this sound familiar?

Jude quotes the book of enoch too, so lets take our doctrine from that book also ??
Like i said, If moses is in Heaven than other can be there also, Like little babies or aborted babies.

Why are you stuck on something that we know nothing about??
Like i said time and time again, God can choose to take to heaven anyone he wants, when ever he wants.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Like i said time and time again, God can choose to take to heaven anyone he wants, when ever he wants.

True but we only have evidence of 24... whether that number includes Moses and Elijah, one would think so. They are called elders, so it's possible these were the Patriarchs of the OT... not hanging my hat on it but it does sound right.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

True but we only have evidence of 24... whether that number includes Moses and Elijah, one would think so. They are called elders, so it's possible these were the Patriarchs of the OT... not hanging my hat on it but it does sound right.

Thank you.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
When the book of Jude turns into "not the bible" -- let us know.

When John 11 and Matthew 22 and 1Thess 4 turn into "not the Bible" -- let us know.

Until then -- "Give me the Bible AND The Words IN the Bible"

BobRyan said: ↑
Moses is in heaven because of bodily resurrection and bodily assumption of Moses into heaven as recorded in the book "the Assumption of Moses" - quoted in the book of Jude.

Does this sound familiar?

Jude quotes the book of enoch too,

Indeed but specifically quotes the incident of the resurrection where Michael and the devil are disputing what God is about to do with the body of Moses -- bodily resurrection.

Hence we see Moses standing with Christ in Matt 17 -- before the cross. In glorified resurrected form.

What part of this is "difficult"?

 

[YHWH's Lion]

When John 11 and Matthew 22 and 1Thess 4 turn into "not the Bible" -- let us know.

Until then -- "Give me the Bible AND The Words IN the Bible"





Indeed but specifically quotes the incident of the resurrection where Michael and the devil are disputing what God is about to do with the body of Moses -- bodily resurrection.

Hence we see Moses standing with Christ in Matt 17 -- before the cross. In glorified resurrected form.

What part of this is "difficult"?

So aborted babies where do those go? And why don't you read 1 Thess 4:14, who is God bringing with him? The truth Is that it's not so black and white, there are many things that we can't be sure of so we need to stop talking like we know 100%.God is God, and his ways are higher than our ways.

 

[Dave-W]

So aborted babies where do those go?

Biblically undefined. We do not know.

 

[BobRyan]

So aborted babies where do those go? And why don't you read 1 Thess 4:14, who is God bringing with him?

They go to sleep according to 1Thess 4 and John 11.

Their soul/spirit is in a dormant state - with God.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

They go to sleep according to 1Thess 4 and John 11.

Their soul/spirit is in a dormant state - with God.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

man you just think you know everything for sure eh. At lease DaveW is wise enough to come up with the right answer. Tell me who is Christ bringing with him in 1 thes 4:14?

 

[BobRyan]

So aborted babies where do those go? And why don't you read 1 Thess 4:14, who is God bringing with him?

They go to sleep according to 1Thess 4 and John 11.

Their soul/spirit is in a dormant state - with God.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

man you just think you know everything for sure eh.

I fail to see how that poses some sort of "problem" for the quote of the text as the answer to the question.

At lease DaveW is wise enough to come up with the right answer. Tell me who is Christ bringing with him in 1 thes 4:14?

The saints- those who "ARE Asleep" 1 Thess 4:13... those "who have fallen asleep" 1 Thess 4:14.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"? Paul calls them "the DEAD in Christ"

 

[YHWH's Lion]

They go to sleep according to 1Thess 4 and John 11.

Their soul/spirit is in a dormant state - with God.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.



I fail to see how that poses some sort of "problem" for the quote of the text as the answer to the question.



The saints- those who "ARE Asleep" 1 Thess 4:13... those "who have fallen asleep" 1 Thess 4:14.
Were we simply "not supposed to notice"? Paul calls them "the DEAD in Christ"

I fail to see how that poses some sort of "problem" for the quote of the text as the answer to the question.

The problem is that the Bible does not say, but you think you have all the answers and you know the Mind of God, and you definitely definitely know that aborted babies "sleep" and than are raised in their non-existent bodies.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"? Paul calls them "the DEAD in Christ"

Ya Christ is bringing them WITH HIM when he comes.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

man you just think you know everything for sure eh.

Not a very Christian attitude towards another believer... Bob is simply stating that which he understands to be truth based on the reading of scripture.

Tell me who is Christ bringing with him in 1 thes 4:14?

If you will consider the verse in context and as it reads, it says that just as God (the Father) raised Christ and took Him to Heaven, so He (the Father) will do for us that 'sleep in Jesus'.