"Soul Sleep"; Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[CelticRebel]

Within the SDA, is there room for disagreement on "soul sleep" and the penal substitution view of the atonement?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Biblical evidence for soul sleep is solid, however you are free to believe as you wish.

In my opinion, if you don't hold to the basic pillars of a denominations beliefs, then why identify with them? Happens within Adventism more than other protestant denom's I would suspect because the othere denom's of already created their divides.

 

[Dave-W]

The Biblical evidence for soul sleep is solid,

ONLY if you make the non-biblical assumption that time is a constant between the living and the dead.

 

[BobRyan]

Within the SDA, is there room for disagreement on "soul sleep" and the penal substitution view of the atonement?

The 28 Fundamental Beliefs are voted by representatives from the entire World Church - of Seventh-day Adventists - these are the beliefs of the actual denomination and not a one-off of this individual or that local congregation etc.

But all of it is "up for change" via "sola scriptura" testing and proof of some more clear light on the subject.

Matt 10:28 Christ says God will "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" -
John 11 and 1Thess 4 - make the "sleep" case repeatedly for those who have "fallen asleep" as in "Lazarus is dead" John 11.
Yet the first death is mere dormancy of the soul as John 11 and 1 Thess 4 point out.

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not four our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"
along with Is 53 make the "substitutionary atoning death of Christ" for our sins - irrefutable from the Bible perspective.

 

[BobRyan]

ONLY if you make the non-biblical assumption that time is a constant between the living and the dead.

That is not correct. The dead are only said to sleep (John 11, 1Thess 4) as the experience of the living regarding the dead. But for the dead person - they do not experience even one second of time "spent sleeping". Rather for the one passing through death's door death is a non-event. They are immediately in the presence of Christ at his second coming - at the resurrection of the saints (if they are saved when they die).

 

[Dave-W]

That is not correct. The dead are only said to sleep (John 11, 1Thess 4)

"Sleep" was a common Aramaic euphemism for death.

ut for the dead person - they do not experience even one second of time "spent sleeping". Rather for the one passing through death's door death is a non-event. They are immediately in the presence of Christ at his second coming

That is where the assumption of time being constant comes in. You think that there exists an interim time from one event to another. That presupposes that time is moving in both our existence and eternity in sync with each other. Why make that assumption? Isa 46.10 says that God declares the end from the beginning. The sense is that He sees both the beginning and end simultaneously. They both occur together.

So I cannot just assume that there is any wait time (even if it is unperceived).

 

[BobRyan]

"Sleep" was a common Aramaic euphemism for death.

That is where the assumption of time being constant comes in. You think that there exists an interim time from one event to another. That presupposes that time is moving in both our existence and eternity in sync with each other. Why make that assumption?[

We live "today" we do not live in "tomorrow" today. I did not read your post before you typed it.

So ... time.

But "sleep" is the dormant state of the dead "the living know that they will die but the dead know not anything" - they aren't doing anything - they do not even consider anything much less think that they are sleeping and waiting. Death is a non-event for those who have "fallen asleep".

If your point is that God is not dead, or God is not sleeping, or if the dead were also God they would see things differently - well then.. I have no doubt of that.

 

[BobRyan]

Ps 146:
2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,



Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.




Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!


No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.


Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;


No memory of God

Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?



(Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 - )


Isaiah 38

18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

 

[Dave-W]

But "sleep" is the dormant state of the dead "the living know that they will die but the dead know not anything" - they aren't doing anything - they do not even consider anything much less think that they are sleeping and waiting. Death is a non-event for those who have "fallen asleep".

You are confusing the body and the soul/spirit. Yes the body "sleeps" in death. But the soul/spirit of the redeemed returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The realm where God resides is outside time/space. That is where our soul/spirit goes to.

 

[BobRyan]

1Thess 4:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.


Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".



John 11:

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”


1Cor 15:
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

 

[BobRyan]

You are confusing the body and the soul/spirit. Yes the body "sleeps" in death.

The body does not sleep in death. Rather it decays and returns to dust.

it is killed. This is irrefutable.

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Eccl 12:7 the body "returns to dust"
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Gen 3
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

the spirit is dormant and sleeps - but the dust is not sleeping. It is dust.

But the soul/spirit of the redeemed returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Eccl 12 does not limit that statement to the "redeemed" - rather that statement is true for all mankind in the text just as in Eccl 9

Eccl 9 "the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything"

The realm where God resides is outside time/space. That is where our soul/spirit goes to.

It is not true that the angels are outside of time/space. It is true that the spirit goes to God - but it is in a dormant state.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ's "proof" of the future resurrection in Matt 22 - only works to convince the Sadducees if the dormant state of the soul is accepted as Bible fact.


With all that inactivity and no praising God – and sleep – no wonder Christ argues “God is not the God of the dead” in Matt 22.


Matt 22

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

This is a quote of Ex 3:6. Christ is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it.

He is going to setup a Bible proof for them that there MUST be a resurrection. In Ex 3:6 we have God speaking to Moses more than 3 centuries after the death of Jacob. As we saw in Acts 23:8 the Sadducees do not believe in the resurrection nor in spirits. That means that for them God “should have said” something like “I USED to be the God of Abraham back in the day when he was alive”. Of course if they are going to give up their Sadducee doctrine they can solve the problem either by giving up the idea that “God is not the God of the dead” OR they can give up the idea that “there is no resurrection” and thus God is taking into account that future resurrection when he makes the Ex 3:6 statement about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Using either of these two solutions the Ex 3:6 scenario would then be preserved.

It is instructive that to this point there is no debate nor challenge of what Christ is affirming - by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.

Now Christ will affirm ONE of their teachings so as to leave only one door open as a solution to this Ex 3:6.

Matt 22
32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him” for this statement above is actually in agreement with their own beliefs. What he is doing is shutting this door as a possible solution – so that only the resurrection is left and Christ started his argument stating that is purpose is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there must be a resurrection if one is going to believe the Bible.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read…

Christ’s method of debate works here because the Sadducees Already accept the Bible truth that “God is NOT the God of the dead”.

So What is the result of Christ’s Bible-proof in this debate?

Matt 22
33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.


It is a “grand-slam” proof of the future resurrection according to Christ.

 

[CelticRebel]

The 28 Fundamental Beliefs are voted by representatives from the entire World Church - of Seventh-day Adventists - these are the beliefs of the actual denomination and not a one-off of this individual or that local congregation etc.

But all of it is "up for change" via "sola scriptura" testing and proof of some more clear light on the subject.

Matt 10:28 Christ says God will "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" -
John 11 and 1Thess 4 - make the "sleep" case repeatedly for those who have "fallen asleep" as in "Lazarus is dead" John 11.
Yet the first death is mere dormancy of the soul as John 11 and 1 Thess 4 point out.

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not four our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"
along with Is 53 make the "substitutionary atoning death of Christ" for our sins - irrefutable from the Bible perspective.

If it is "irrefutable", why did the early Christians not hold it? And why was it not held for the first 1500 years of church history? Why did Christians for the first 1500 years of the church not see it or hold it?

 

[BobRyan]

If it is "irrefutable", why did the early Christians not hold it? And why was it not held for the first 1500 years of church history? Why did Christians for the first 1500 years of the church not see it or hold it?

They did hold to it for the first 100 years.

But Paul in Acts 20 claimed that "after my departure grevious wolves will come in... men from among your own selves"
And in 1Tim 1 Paul tells Timothy that he left him in Ephesus to try and keep a lid on error that was already springing up.
3 John - we find that it is taking over entire congregations

Hence the Protestant appeal to "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - going back to the original NT teaching.

 

[CelticRebel]

They did hold to it for the first 100 years.

But Paul in Acts 20 claimed that "after my departure grevious wolves will come in... men from among your own selves"
And in 1Tim 1 Paul tells Timothy that he left him in Ephesus to try and keep a lid on error that was already springing up.
3 John - we find that it is taking over entire congregations

Hence the Protestant appeal to "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - going back to the original NT teaching.

The evidence is to the contrary. From the first century Christians onward, there is no evidence of the PSA teaching, and those first century Christians had the personal witness of the apostles and their writings.

So, you really believe that PSA was the original doctrine, lost after the first 100 years, and "rediscovered" by Calvin?! That is not credible.

 

[BobRyan]

The evidence is to the contrary. From the first century Christians onward, there is no evidence of the PSA teaching,

On the contrary - look at these genuine first century documents -- not forgeries, not filled with lots of interpolation - but genuine first century documents - accurately translated

1Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.


Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".



John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”


1Cor 15:
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

 

[BobRyan]

And of course you are ignoring Christ's proof of the future resurrection as quoted in the post below - because ignoring those details is a necessary feature of the view that denies the details of 1Thess 4 and John 11, and 1Cor 15.

Christ's "proof" of the future resurrection in Matt 22 - only works to convince the Sadducees if the dormant state of the soul is accepted as Bible fact.


With all that inactivity and no praising God – and sleep – no wonder Christ argues “God is not the God of the dead” in Matt 22.


Matt 22

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

This is a quote of Ex 3:6. Christ is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it.

He is going to setup a Bible proof for them that there MUST be a resurrection. In Ex 3:6 we have God speaking to Moses more than 3 centuries after the death of Jacob. As we saw in Acts 23:8 the Sadducees do not believe in the resurrection nor in spirits. That means that for them God “should have said” something like “I USED to be the God of Abraham back in the day when he was alive”. Of course if they are going to give up their Sadducee doctrine they can solve the problem either by giving up the idea that “God is not the God of the dead” OR they can give up the idea that “there is no resurrection” and thus God is taking into account that future resurrection when he makes the Ex 3:6 statement about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Using either of these two solutions the Ex 3:6 scenario would then be preserved.

It is instructive that to this point there is no debate nor challenge of what Christ is affirming - by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.

Now Christ will affirm ONE of their teachings so as to leave only one door open as a solution to this Ex 3:6.

Matt 22
32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him” for this statement above is actually in agreement with their own beliefs. What he is doing is shutting this door as a possible solution – so that only the resurrection is left and Christ started his argument stating that is purpose is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there must be a resurrection if one is going to believe the Bible.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read…

Christ’s method of debate works here because the Sadducees Already accept the Bible truth that “God is NOT the God of the dead”.

So What is the result of Christ’s Bible-proof in this debate?

Matt 22
33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.


It is a “grand-slam” proof of the future resurrection according to Christ.

 

[Dave-W]

Bob - what do you do with the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob - what do you do with the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

Same thing that R.C.Sproul does with it - admit that prayers to the dead and Abraham as sovereign of heaven - who is in charge of what saints may be resurrected etc - is purely a parable - not a reference to real life.

Notice that the Rich man does not pray to God - just to Abraham and Abraham alone renders the decision. In this prayers to the dead example - a great many Bible scholars and commentators that DO believe in immortal soul and saints living while dead etc - declare that Luke 16 is merely a parable.

Christ said that the LESSON of the parable is NOT - to pray to the dead but RATHER - "IF they do NOT listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rise from the dead" -- and yet some even here would insist that Christians "not listen to Moses"!

What is more - even in that parable - the dead may not help/minister-to/warn the living without first being "resurrected".

 

[Dave-W]

You missed my point. In the parable, Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus were all conscious even though their bodies were dead and in the grave. If everyone believed in "soul sleep" would not that parable have been entirely out of sorts and ignored?