"Soul Sleep"; Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[Dave-W]

first of all, Greek mythology and customs were very much a part of Jewish thinking. Just as Persian and Babylonian culture were.

Only in the diaspora; NOT in Israel proper. (i.e. the Roman provinces of Judea and Galilea)

Our Lord never left those 2 Roman provinces after coming back from Egypt as a child.

 

[CelticRebel]

On the contrary - look at these genuine first century documents -- not forgeries, not filled with lots of interpolation - but genuine first century documents - accurately translated

1Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.


Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".



John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”


1Cor 15:
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

I was addressing PSA, but your post addresses soul sleep.

 

[BobRyan]

PSA first century - "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but - for the sins - of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

Paul regarding PSA - " 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us." 1Cor 5:7

PSA OT - Is 53
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,

 

[CelticRebel]

PSA first century - "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but - for the sins - of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

Paul regarding PSA - " 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us." 1Cor 5:7

PSA OT - Is 53
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,

The problem for your interpretation of those verses is that no one else interpreted them that way for the first 1500 years of church history, and that includes the first century Christians. PSA was invented by Calvin, and it was an extension of the Roman Catholic Anselm's Satisfaction Theory, invented 1000 years after the apostles, unknown until Anselm. Funny, isn't it, how Protestants off0shoots of Protestantism kept RC doctrines of man, sin, and atonement.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem for your interpretation of those verses is that no one else interpreted them that way for the first 1500 years of church history

only if you discount the first 100 years of church history - the actual writing of the NT authors.

In any case - the Protestants were told that same thing by the Catholics.

My model is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

These texts were not invented by Calvin -
Yesterday at 11:05 AM #43
The only way to get around the texts - is to talk about something else rather than the details in the texts.

 

[CelticRebel]

only if you discount the first 100 years of church history - the actual writing of the NT authors.

In any case - the Protestants were told that same thing by the Catholics.

My model is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

These texts were not invented by Calvin -
Yesterday at 11:05 AM #43
The only way to get around the texts - is to talk about something else rather than the details in the texts.

So, you really believe that Christians saw PSA in those scriptures, that they interpreted them that way up until 100 A.D., but right after that stopped interpreting that way? Nope, doesn't add up and not a shred of evidence for it.

 

[BobRyan]

What I am saying is that the "PSA details" -- yes "the very details" were placed into the texts - 'as they read' - by the Bible writers themselves. We call this "sola scriptura" testing of all traditions and doctrine. It actually works as it turns out.

The very elements most unacceptable to those opposed to PSA are right there "in the text"

PSA first century - "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but - for the sins - of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

Paul regarding PSA - " 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us." 1Cor 5:7

PSA OT - Is 53
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,

Everyone has free will - they may certainly turn a blind eye to the "details in the text" and argue that such teaching 'does not exist in the Bible' -- but that does not make the details in these texts "go away".

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

what is our debt? our "certificate of debt" -- what punishment is owed? What "stripes"??

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Yes but don't "all" owe the same debt?

Luke 12
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. 49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already

ok so there are "degrees" of torment owed - some owe much while others will owe few.

How is the torment, the "flogging", the "stripes" to be applied - to the lost according to "the Bible"?

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[Dave-W]

My model is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

And what do you do when a passage (in the original language) can be taken in 2 very opposite ways?

 

[BobRyan]

And what do you do when a passage (in the original language) can be taken in 2 very opposite ways?

our catholic and eastern orthodox friends often raise that objection to the Bible teaching of sola scriptura that we find in Mar 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11. We have been answering that one in triplicate over on the General Theology section.

 

[Dave-W]

our catholic and eastern orthodox friends often raise that objection to the Bible teaching of sola scriptura that we find in Mar 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11. We have been answering that one in triplicate over on the General Theology section.

Actually I came across this very issue this past Shabbat when discussing the weekly Parashah. (Toldot Genesis 25:19-28:9 )

In chapter 27 Jacob had just "stolen" his father's blessing and Esau comes in and wants to be blessed as well, to which Isaac says he has already given his blessing. When Esau begs for a blessing as well Jacob says this:

38 Esau said to his father, “Do you just have one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
39 Then Isaac his father said to him, “Behold, away from the land’s fatness shall your dwelling be, away from the dew of the sky above.
40 By your sword shall you live, and your brother shall you serve. But when you tear yourself loose, you will tear his yoke off your neck.”

That was from the Tree of Life version. Here is the Stone Edition translation of the same text:

38 And Esau said to his father, "Have you [but] one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father." And Esau raised his voice and wept.
39 And his father Isaac answered and said to him, "Behold, your dwelling place shall be the fat places of the earth and of the dew of the heaven from above.
40 And you shall live by your sword, and you shall serve your brother, and it will be, when you grieve, that you will break his yoke off your neck."

If you notice, they say exactly the opposite things in verse 39. Is his dwelling to be IN the fat places or AWAY from the fat places?
The reason is that the Hebrew is equally well translated either way.

 

[BobRyan]

Obscure readings not withstanding - The idea that these proven and accurate translations are just 'too difficult to read' on even that obscure text - is very difficult to prove and thus no argument is possible from Genesis 27 - against Christ's "Sola Scriptura" method of Mark 7:6-13 or the NT saints doing that same thing in Acts 17:11.

Genesis 27:39-40New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him,

“Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling,
And away from the dew of heaven from above.
40 “By your sword you shall live,
And your brother you shall serve;
But it shall come about when you become restless,
That you will break his yoke from your neck.”


Genesis 27:39-40New King James Version (NKJV)
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:

“Behold, your dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth,
And of the dew of heaven from above.
40 By your sword you shall live,
And you shall serve your brother;
And it shall come to pass, when you become restless,
That you shall break his yoke from your neck.”

Genesis 27:39-40Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
39 And Isaac his father answereth and saith unto him, `Lo, of the fatness of the earth is thy dwelling, and of the dew of the heavens from above;

40 and by thy sword dost thou live, and thy brother dost thou serve; and it hath come to pass when thou rulest, that thou hast broken his yoke from off thy neck.'

Genesis 27:39-40King James Version (KJV)
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.


=============================================== What is the result

Gal 1:6-9 "though we (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should bring to you any other (opposing) doctrine - let him be accursed" -- "sola scriptura" testing is what enables us to follow Paul's teaching in Gal 1

 

[BobRyan]

Which means - reading and accepting these texts "as they read" is much more likely to continue -Saturday at 7:08 AM #47 and so also these texts below.




Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

what is our debt? our "certificate of debt" -- what punishment is owed? What "stripes"??

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Yes but don't "all" owe the same debt?

Luke 12
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. 49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already

ok so there are "degrees" of torment owed - some owe much while others will owe few.

How is the torment, the "flogging", the "stripes" to be applied - to the lost according to "the Bible"?

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[Dave-W]

Obscure readings not withstanding - The idea that these proven and accurate translations are just 'too difficult to read' on even that obscure text

I am not sure why you think Genesis 27 is an "obscure text."

But if you read carefully - both versions (that he was blessed and that he was cursed) appear in the 4 versions you quote.

NASB says "... away from the fertility ... away from the dew..." while NKJV says "... of the fatness ...And of the dew..." Those are exact opposite and both equally well translate the Masoretic Hebrew.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sounds to me, if Hebrew is this ambiguous in it's translation, then the whole OT is suspect.

 

[BobRyan]

Obscure readings not withstanding - The idea that these proven and accurate translations are just 'too difficult to read' on even that obscure text - is very difficult to prove and thus no argument is possible from Genesis 27 - against Christ's "Sola Scriptura" method of Mark 7:6-13 or the NT saints doing that same thing in Acts 17:11.

Genesis 27:39-40New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him,

“Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling,
And away from the dew of heaven from above.
40 “By your sword you shall live,
And your brother you shall serve;
But it shall come about when you become restless,
That you will break his yoke from your neck.”


Genesis 27:39-40New King James Version (NKJV)
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:

“Behold, your dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth,
And of the dew of heaven from above.
40 By your sword you shall live,
And you shall serve your brother;
And it shall come to pass, when you become restless,
That you shall break his yoke from your neck.”

Genesis 27:39-40Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
39 And Isaac his father answereth and saith unto him, `Lo, of the fatness of the earth is thy dwelling, and of the dew of the heavens from above;

40 and by thy sword dost thou live, and thy brother dost thou serve; and it hath come to pass when thou rulest, that thou hast broken his yoke from off thy neck.'

Genesis 27:39-40King James Version (KJV)
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

I am not sure why you think Genesis 27 is an "obscure text."

But if you read carefully - both versions (that he was blessed and that he was cursed) appear in the 4 versions you quote.

All of them agree on "thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck."

All of them state that Esau lives by the sword. The fact that NKJV/KJV/NASB compared sometimes yield more accuracy one way vs the other - is like noticing that at some times NASB leaves out a verse. Old story - not sufficient to dismiss the Bible teaching on sola scriptura testing that they all report in Mark 7:6-13.

hence

Gal 1:6-9 "though we (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should bring to you any other (opposing) doctrine - let him be accursed" -- "sola scriptura" testing is what enables us to follow Paul's teaching in Gal 1

 

[Dave-W]

Bob - you are IGNORING the fact that the Hebrew can equally be translated either way.

The bible was NOT written in English.

Like I said, this came up last Shabbat as we discussed this parasha. I read (in English) from the Tree of Life Version and was stopped by someone reading along in the JPS version which read the opposite. We have at least 2 in our group that are fluent in biblical Hebrew and verified from the text that it could be equally taken either way.

 

[BobRyan]

You are ignoring the fact that it is "old news" that some verses are missing from NASB as compared to NKJV and that getting to any question point in the text - is easily resolved.

The Bible translators do not simply "make stuff up in English" rather they are a committee of scholars translating from one text to another. And when at times they may err - we can see the mistake clearly by comparing that translation to the more literal translations like YLT, NKJV, NASB

In any case this is a rabbit trail - until you make a case that some set of more literal translations - agree with your view when it comes to

Nov 11, 2015 #43

 

[Dave-W]

You are ignoring the fact that it is "old news" that some verses are missing from NASB as compared to NKJV and that getting to any question point in the text - is easily resolved.

Those so-called "missing verses" show the difference between the Textus Receptus (underlying the KJV, NKJV) and the Nestle-Aland Greek text. (underlying the NASB, NIV, ESV and TLV) That is of course referring to the Greek New Testament. All (except eastern Orthodox) bibles use the same Masoretic text for the OT.

So I am not ignoring anything. Do you realize that some texts (both the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek) can be completely ambiguous as to how it gets translated?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Those so-called "missing verses" show the difference between the Textus Receptus (underlying the KJV, NKJV) and the Nestle-Aland Greek text. (underlying the NASB, NIV, ESV and TLV) That is of course referring to the Greek New Testament. All (except eastern Orthodox) bibles use the same Masoretic text for the OT.

So I am not ignoring anything. Do you realize that some texts (both the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek) can be completely ambiguous as to how it gets translated?

So how can you trust what the Bible states?