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Soul goes to heaven before Resurrection? Soul goes to heaven after resurrection?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by claninja, Jul 10, 2018.

Do we immediately go to heaven when we die or no?

  1. the soul ascends to heaven BEFORE the resurrection

    10 vote(s)
    52.6%
  2. the soul ascends to heaven AFTER the resurrection

    9 vote(s)
    47.4%
  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Is not where Jesus is now seated at the Right Hand of Power in fact Paradise? Why does Paradise have to wait for the New Jerusalem to come out of Heaven to Earth after the GWT judgement?

    Just something to consider. Unless of course one believes the "inner man" or soul cannot be separated from a rotting mortal corpse; which would mean Jesus did not really mean "Today" as in that day because that would be impossible. Is it your view that indeed this is impossible?

    You did a good job matching exact Greek words for Paradise, but we must also consider how words are used in context. A lot is packed in context for example...

    From Vine's:

    Paradise

    [ 1,,G3857, paradeisos ]
    is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting the parks of Perisian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek. See the Sept., e.g., in Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Songs 4:13. The Sept. translators used it of the garden of Eden, Genesis 2:8, and in other respects, e.g., Numbers 24:6; Isaiah 1:30; Jeremiah 29:5; Ezekiel 31:8-Ezekiel 31:9.

    In Luke 23:43, the promise of the Lord to the repentant robber was fulfilled the same day; Christ, at His death, having committed His spirit to the Father, went in spirit immediately into Heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (the Lord's mention of the place as "paradise" must have been a great comfort to the malefactor; to the oriental mind it expressed the sum total of blessedness). Thither the Apostle Paul was caught up, 2 Corinthians 12:4, spoken of as "the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:3 does not introduce a different vision), beyond the heavens of the natural creation (See Hebrews 4:14, RV, with reference to the Ascension). The same region is mentioned in Revelation 2:7, where the "tree of life," the figurative antitype of that in Eden, held out to the overcomer, is spoken of as being in "the Paradise of God" (RV), marg., "garden," as in Genesis 2:8.

    https://studybible.info/vines/Paradise


    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 3857: παράδεισος

    παράδεισος, παραδείσου, ὁ (thought by most to be of Persian orion, by others of Armenian, cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, ii., p. 1124; (B. D., under the word; especially Fried. Delitzsch, We lag das Paradies? Leipzig 1881, pp. 95-97; cf. Max Müller, Selected Essays, i., 129f)),
    1. among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting-ground, park, shady and well-watered, in which wild animals were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters: Xenophon, Cyril 1, 3, 14; (1, 4, 5); 8, 1, 38; oec. 4, 13 and 14; anab. 1, 2, 7, 9; Theophrastus, h. pl. 5, 8, 1; Diodorus 16, 41; 14, 80; Pint. Artax. 25, cf. Curt; 8, 1, 11.


    2. universally, a garden, pleasure-ground; grove, park: Lucian, v. h. 2, 23; Aelian v. h. 1, 33; Josephus, Antiquities 7, 14, 4; 8, 7, 3; 9, 10, 4; 10, 3, 2 and 11, 1; b. j. 6, 1, 1; (c. Apion. 1, 19, 9 (where cf. Müller)); Susanna 4, 7, 15, etc.; Sir. 24:30; and so it passed into the Hebrew language, פַּרְדֵּס, Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Solomon 4:13; besides in the Sept. mostly for גַּן; thus, for that delightful region, 'the garden of Eden,' in which our first parents dwelt before the fall: Genesis 2:8ff; 3:1ff.

    3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f. But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise.

    4. an upper region in the heavens: 2 Corinthians 12:4 (where some maintain, others deny, that the term is equivalent to ὁ τρίτος οὐρανός in 2 Corinthians 12:2); with the addition of τοῦ Θεοῦ, genitive of possessor, the abode of God and heavenly beings, to which true Christians will be taken after death, Revelation 2:7 (cf. Genesis 13:10; Ezekiel 28:13; Ezekiel 31:8). According to the opinion of many of the church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on earth nor in the heavens, but above and beyond the world; cf. Thilo, Cod. apocr. Nov. Test., on Evang. Nicod. c. xxv., p. 748ff; and Bleek thinks that the word ought to be taken in this sense in Revelation 2:7. Cf. Dillmann under the word Paradies in Schenkel iv. 377ff; also Hilgenfeld, Die Clement. Recogn. und Hom., p. 87f; Klöpper on 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, p. 507ff ((Göttingen, 1869). See also B. D., under the word; McClintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia, under the word; Hamburger, Real-Encyclopädie, Abtheil. ii, under the word.)

    Vine's:


    Heaven, Heavenly (-ies)

    [ 1,,G3772, ouranos ]
    probably akin to ornumi, to lift, to heave," is used in the NT
    (a) of "the aerial heavens," e.g., Matthew 6:26; Matthew 8:20; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6 (RV, "heaven," in each place, AV, "air"); James 5:18;
    (b) "the sidereal," e.g., Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:25, Mark 13:31; Hebrews 11:12, RV, "heaven," AV, "sky;" Revelation 6:14; Revelation 20:11; they,
    (a) and
    (b), were created by the Son of God, Hebrews 1:10, as also by God the Father, Revelation 10:6;
    (c) "the eternal dwelling place of God," Matthew 5:16; Matthew 12:50; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 11:13; Revelation 16:11; Revelation 20:9. From thence the Son of God descended to become incarnate, John 3:13, John 3:31; John 6:38, John 6:42. In His ascension Christ "passed through the heavens," Hebrews 4:14, RV; He "ascended far above all the heavens," Ephesians 4:10, and was "made higher than the heavens," Hebrews 7:26; He "sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens," Hebrews 8:1; He is "on the right hand of God," having gone into heaven, 1 Peter 3:22. Since His ascension it is the scene of His present life and activity, e.g., Romans 8:34;. Hebrews 9:24. From the thence the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost, 1 Peter 1:12. It is the abode of the angels, e.g., Matthew 18:10; Matthew 22:30; cp. Revelation 3:5. Thither Paul was "caught up," whether in the body or out of the body, he knew not, 2 Corinthians 12:2. It is to be the eternal dwelling place of the saints in resurrection glory, 2 Corinthians 5:1. From thence Christ will descend to the air to receive His saints at the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Philippians 3:20-Philippians 3:21, and will subsequently come with His saints and with His holy angels at His second advent, Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7. In the present life "heavens," is the region of the spirtual citizenship of believers, Philippians 3:20. The present "heavens" with the earth, are to pass away, 2 Peter 3:10, "being on fire," 2 Peter 3:12 (See 2 Peter 3:7); Revelation 20:11, and new "heavens" and earth are to be created, 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1, with Isaiah 65:17, e.g.

    In Luke 15:18, Luke 15:21, "heaven" is used, by metonymy, for God. See
    AIR.

    Notes:

    (1) For the phrase in Luke 11:13, See Note on B, No. 2.



    (2) In Luke 11:2, the AV, "as in heaven," translates a phrase found in some mss.

    [ 2,,
    G3321, mesouranema ]
    denotes "mid-heaven," or the midst of the heavens (mesos, "middle," and No. 1), Revelation 8:13; Revelation 14:6; Revelation 19:17.

    [ A-1,Adjective,
    G3770, ouranios ]
    signifying "of heaven, heavenly," corresponding to A, No. 1, is used
    (a) as an appellation of God the Father, Matthew 6:14, Matthew 6:26, Matthew 6:32, "your heavenly Father;" Matthew 15:13, "My heavenly Father;"
    (b) as descriptive of the holy angels, Luke 2:13;
    (c) of the vision seen by Paul, Acts 26:19.

    [ A-2,Adjective,
    G2032, epouranios ]
    "heavenly," what pertains to, or is in, heaven (epi, in the sense of "pertaining to," not here, "above"), has meanings corresponding to some of the meanings of ouranos, A, No. 1. It is used
    (a) of God the Father, Matthew 18:35;
    (b) of the place where Christ "sitteth at the right hand of God" (i.e., in a position of Divine authority), Ephesians 1:20; and of the present position of believers in relationship to Christ, Ephesians 2:6; where they possess "every spiritual blessing," Ephesians 1:3;
    (c) of Christ as "the Second Man," and all those who are related to Him spirtually, 1 Corinthians 15:48;
    (d) of those whose sphere of activity or existence is above, or in contrast to that of earth, of "principalities and powers," Ephesians 3:10; of "spiritual hosts of wickedness," Ephesians 6:12, RV, "in heavenly places," for AV, "in high places;"
    (e) of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 6:4;
    (f) of "heavenly things," as the subjects of the teaching of Christ, John 3:12, and as consisting of the spiritual and "heavenly" sanctuary and "true tabernacle" and all that appertains thereto in relation to Christ and His sacrifice as antitypical of the earthly tabernacle and sacrifices under the Law, Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 9:23;
    (g) of the "calling" of believers, Hebrews 3:1;
    (h) of heaven as the abode of the saints, "a better country" than that of earth, Hebrews 11:16, and of the spiritual Jerusalem, Hebrews 12:22;
    (i) of the kingdom of Christ in its future manifestation, 2 Timothy 4:18;
    (j) of all beings and things, animate and inanimate, that are "above the earth," Philippians 2:10;
    (k) of the resurrection and glorified bodies of believers, 1 Corinthians 15:49;
    (l) of the "heavenly orbs," 1 Corinthians 15:40 ("celestial," twice, and so rendered here only).

    Note: In connection with
    (a), the word "heavenly," used of God the Father in Luke 11:13, represents the phrase ex ouranou, "from heaven."

    [ B-1,Adverb,
    G3771, ouranothen ]
    formed from A, No. 1, and denoting "from heaven," is used of
    (a) the aerial heaven, Acts 14:17;
    (b) heaven, as the uncreated sphere of God's abode, Acts 26:13.

    https://studybible.info/vines/Heaven, Heavenly (-ies)
     
  2. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus died, where did He go at the time? Did He not descend into the heart of the earth? He didn't instead go to heaven at the time, did He? If in heaven is where paradise is, but that He spent the time He was dead in the heart of the earth, and if being with Him in paradise that very same day was what He was meaning in regards to the thief, how would that be logical unless He ascended to heaven instead, when He initially died?
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You mean His spirit right? The One which He committed to the Father that day right?

    Please explain.

    Where do you think He went?

    You could have just told me you don't believe the soul/spirit can be separated from the body and save us a lot of time.
     
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    That’s not true:

    The Curetonian Syriac (fifth century C.E.) renders Luke 23:43: "Amen,
    I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of
    Eden.'"--F. C. Burkitt, "The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels," Vol.
    I, Cambridge, 1904.


    Tines men houtos anaginoskousin* _Amen lego soi semeron*_ kai
    hypostizousin* eita epipherousin, hotiet' emou ese e to paradeiso._
    ("Some indeed read this way: 'Truly I tell you today,' and put a comma;
    then they add: 'You will be with me in Paradise.'"--Hesychius of
    Jerusalem, an ecclessiastical writer who died about 434 C.E.Greek text
    found in Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 93, columns 432, 1433.


    Alloi de ekbiazontai to rhema, stizontes eis to <<Semeron,>> hin' e to
    legomenon toiouton* <<Amen ego soi semeron*>> eita to, <<met' emou ese
    en to paradeiso,>> epipherontes. ("But others press upon the saying,
    putting a punctuation mark after 'today,' so that it would be said
    this way: 'Truly I tell you today'; and then they add the expression:
    'You will be with me in Paradise.'")--Theophylact, an ecclessistical
    writer who died about 1112 C.E. Edition: Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 123,
    column 1104.
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I’m also pretty sure that the people of Israel knew that Moses was speaking to them that day, and yet he still says “I declare to you today”:

    Deuteronomy 30:18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

    I’m also pretty sure that the elders from Ephesus knew that Paul was speaking to them that day, and yet he still says “I declare to you today”:

    Acts 20:26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you.

    This shows that it is not unreasonable for Christ to be declaring that day, that the thief would be with him in paradise.


    The spirit is not the same as the soul. Saying the spirit is the same as the soul is to make an assumption.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

    You are correct, Christ gave up his spirit to God when He died on the Cross, but that does not mean he ascended to heaven:

    John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

    Christ specifically mentions that He had not yet ascended. So no, I don’t have to assume anything, as Jesus was explicitly clear that he had not yet ascended to heaven before his resurrection.


    Of course the renewed inner man can be separated from the mortal flesh. But it does not go naked as you are claiming. It goes from the mortal flesh (earthly tent) into the immortal flesh (eternal heavenly house) at the resurrection.

    2 Corinthians 5:1-5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


    The entire context of Luke 20:34-38 is the resurrection. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living because of the resurrection. It does not mention the soul separate from the resurrection.

    Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’b He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”



    The Greeks did not believe in a general resurrection. They believed that all people had an immortal soul that would go to a good place or bad place to spend eternity upon death depending on one's deeds. My hope is not that my soul goes to a good place or bad place upon my death. My hope is in the resurrection, of which Christ is the first fruits.
    Acts 17:18-21 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
     
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    I don't see Jesus saying anywhere in this passage that He would instead spend three days and three nights in heaven. The heart of the earth and heaven couldn't possibly be the same location.


    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    This is clearly meaning after He rose. Where would His Father be? Would it not be heaven? And didn't Jesus clearly and plainly say that He had not yet ascended to His Father?

    Based on Matthew 12:40 and John 20:17, where in those passages Jesus is the speaker, where should one assume He did go to and where He did not go to?



    Apparently the spirit/soul does get separated from the body at death, otherwise how does one explain how Jesus went into the heart of the earth at the time? My argument is where Jesus went upon death at the time. And I don't see how it could be heaven when the above 2 passages would be contradicting that if that were the case. And if paradise is in heaven, but that Jesus didn't go to heaven at the time, then neither did the thief. The text indicates the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. And if meaning that same day, if Jesus is in the heart of the earth though, and paradise is in heaven, it would be impossible for the thief to be in paradise with Jesus that same day if Jesus wasn't also in paradise that same day.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    One of several issues with the Curetonian Syriac is the lack of connection to a Greek original.



    Regarding the Curetonian Syriac, it is true that it places "today" with "Amen I tell you," but it is problematic to use this fact in support of a correct understanding of the original Greek text. The Old Syriac Gospels are preserved in two manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Curetonian. Both contain Luke 23:43. The Sinaitic most likely predates the Curetonian by about 100 years. Burkitt posits that the Sinaitic represents a more accurate Syriac text, while the Curetonian was corrected from a later Greek text (one containing a number of spurious passages).6 Luke 23:43 in the Sinaitic text reads:

    Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."7

    The Syriac Peshitta agrees with the Sinaitic text, against the Curetonian, as do the Syriac Diatessaron, the Sahidic Coptic, and a number of manuscripts of the Old Latin. Ephrem, a 4th century commentator on the Syriac Gospels, quotes this verse three times, each time omitting "today." However, he says, "Our Lord shortened His distant liberalities and gave a near promise, To-day and not at the End....Thus through a robber was Paradise opened."8
    "While the Greek may have been ambiguous, overwhelmingly ancient interpreters chose the opposite interpretation to that of the Watchtower"
    8a.


    Footnotes for above:
    6. Burkitt, Crawford,
    Evangelion Da-Mepharreshe, Vol 2, Gorgias Press, 2003.

    7. Lewis, Agnes Smith, The Four Gospels: Retranslated from the Sinaitic Palimpsest, with a Translation of the Whole Text, London: C.J. Clay and Sons, 1896. See also, Wilson, E. Jan, The Old Syriac Gospels: Studies and Comparative Translations, Vol. 2, Piscataway, N.J., Georgias Press, 2002.

    8. Burkitt, op cit., p. 304. Burkitt also quotes Barsalibi (d. 1171) who admits that "some" place "today" with "Amen I tell you," but does not approve of this reading.

    8a. P.J. Williams, PhD, private email to Robert Hommel, dated 1/6/2005.

    The Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses) have plugged the Curetonian Syriac for a very long time, yet ignore the Syriac Peshitta, Sinaitic text, the Syriac Diatessaron, and the Sahidic Coptic. Which all agree with every translation done by committee of scholars.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    My intention was not prove the placement of the comma, my only intention is to show that JW are not the only group of people that translate the phrase “truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” I was responding to the poster who stated specifically:

    If you follow the dates from the post you just quoted, it shows that through the centuries, there were those that translated it: “truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

    This does not prove the placement of the comma, it only proves that there were those in history who translated it this way.
     
  9. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    This is not really about what a parable is and isn't. It's about Christendom's love of hell and their propensity for adjusting scripture to meet that desperate need. The fact that most Bibles falsely contain the word, "hell" is a travesty.

    I can play this silly game, also. #1 (below) is the only one called a parable, so #2,3,4,5 cannot be parables - or, maybe the real truth is that Jesus Christ reasoned that saying it once at the start would apply to all 5 fictitious stories He planned on telling, one after another. And, #3, 4, and 5 all start out with, "a certain.....", but #1 and #2 don't. Therefore, #1 and #2 can't be parables - I guess Christ was wrong about #1. And, none of them mention the Kingdom, so I guess none of them can possibly be parables, according to your logic. These 5 parables all follow in order, with a short 5 verse break between 4 and 5, while Christ rebuked the Pharisees. All of Luke 15 and 16 are parables. To say otherwise, is a corruption of the scriptures. Usually, people use the absurdity that #5 isn't a parable because Lazarus' name is used. The absurdities that people dream up to distort scripture, so it will fit their agenda, is always amazing to me.

    1- Lost Sheep - Lk 15:3-7, Called a Parable in vs 3
    2- Lost Coin - Lk 15:8-10
    3- Prodigal Son - Lk 15:11-32
    4- Dishonest Manager - Lk 16:1-13
    5 -Lazarus and Rich Man - Lk 16:19-31

    Your reasoning on the topic is a very common one that reeks of the traditions of men, similar to those that believe in the 100% pagan concepts that (A) man HAS a soul, even though Gen 2:7 eliminates that possibility by saying that man IS a soul, and that (B) unbelievers are tortured by our loving God, in fire, forever, 24/7, even though Christ died and thus paid the entire debt for the sins of the entire world - 1 John 2:2. Here's a good discussion of that verse.
    https://www.bibleref.com/1-John/2/1-John-2-2.html

    A reason that some people say L&RM is not a parable is because they love the idea that people less pious than they are will be punished. In some churches, those that don't believe in hell are considered unsaved
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    In all of the above they were declaring something would happen that very day. Thus, why the comma is irrelevant from an orthodox Christian standpoint. The comma must be there for a Watchtower soul extinction theory.

    I did not know you are of the trichotomous view. If so then you should have no issues with the spirit being separated from a dead "outer man."

    Notice when He is saying this and what just happened. He Bodily rose from the dead. So yes He had not yet ascended into Heaven as the Risen Christ. Yet in Luke 23:46 we see He gave up His spirit to the Father.

    I think I address this above.

    Paul specifically mentions the desire is not be unclothed. That he would like to pass from this life directly into the Promise of the Resurrection. I'm with Him of course but he says:

    "we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling."

    With the above statement in mind, and considering what Paul writes in the prior chapter as he knows his time is short he says:

    6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

    Compare with Philippians chapter 1:

    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

    If Paul departs here to be with Christ in verse 23 how can that be the resurrection as if he stays in the flesh he can labor more. If it is the resurrection then the Philippians would be with him and there would be no longer any fruitful labor to conduct.

    Indeed the Resurrection is the Promise and our Hope. Don't think anyone would deny this. Yet Christ counts them as among the living in the present tense and even going back to the burning bush encounter.

    Indeed our hope and promise is the Resurrection. The Greeks having nothing to do with the inner man or spirit departing and being with the Lord as Paul outlines.

    The usual Watchtower (and Bullinger) dialogue of disembodied souls floating around like Casper the ghost, claiming the early church was influenced by pagan Greek mythology and thus being present with the Lord is Tradition devoid of Biblical exegesis is rhetorical straw man tactics.

    Soul extinction is actually Tradition. It is the tradition of fringe 19th century revivalist cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes that is where His Body was indeed. Yet He gave up His spirit to the Father. Where is the Father?

    Touch me not is key here. He truly did not ascend yet, at that point, to Heaven in His Resurrected Immortal Body.

    You would have to assume when Jesus gave up His Spirit to the Father, He actually meant the grave.
     
  12. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    He committed His spirit to the Father. That does not mean He went there at once. We (those who are saved) have also committed our souls to the Father, have we been to heaven?
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Was the Spirit of Christ in the grave or committed to the Father? If to the Father (Luke 23:46) where is the Father?
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    That could be due to us not reaching room temperature yet? Meaning we are currently alive in our mortal bodies as Paul opines on:

    2 Corinthians 5: NASB
    6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


    Philippians 1: NASB
    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What about when the wicked die? Do they go to heaven as well?

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it .


    Wasn't this already true before Jesus even came, what I have underlined above? And would not this be applicable universally, thus why I asked do the wicked go to heaven as well? How did anyone literally go to heaven before Jesus even made that possible for anyone? Isn't there a good chance this might need to be understood in a difference sense then? But if not wouldn't that contradict things Jesus has said, and that others have said in the NT, in regards to no man had already entered heaven before Jesus initially came the first time?

    As to Him being in the heart of the earth---

    Heart is the Greek word kardia. In the context of where Jesus went when He died, the only def below that appears to fit would be middle. That means He descended into the middle of the earth. His body though was not in the middle of the earth was it? The earth is huge in size. The middle couldn't possibly mean the surface nor even 6 feet under. So why you are concluding that was meaning in regards to His body, isn't making sense to me.


    kardia
    kardia
    kar-dee'-ah
    prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jesus gives us a look at how Hades or Sheol is separated in Luke 16.
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Moses was declaring that Israel would perish the same day he said this?
    Deuteronomy 30:18 declare to you today that you will surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

    I never mentioned soul extinction, so I don't know what you mean by that. The theory of the comma being placed after 'today' pre dates JW.

    I never said that I was trichotomous. **personally, I believe the 'spirit' of man is the breath of life given by God. The fleshly body is brought to physical life by the breath of God. As ruach is the Hebrew counterpart to pneuma, it is the same spirit, or breath of life, that the animals received to bring their fleshly bodies to life.

    Gensis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life (ruach)


    Helps-word studies defines the spirit as:

    4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

    [Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

    The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

    According to Strong's, the spirit as defined as the soul leaving the body, is only found in 2 verses:
    b. a human soul that has left the body ((Babrius 122, 8)): plural (Latinmanes), Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 3:19.

    Of which are debatable and not concrete proofs of spirit being equal to the soul.

    Jesus gave up his spirit, his ruach, which is the breath of God that animates the body.

    So you are saying that Jesus really meant that his soul had already ascended to heaven, but his resurrected body had not? Well as scripture does not say that nor does scripture say that Jesus' soul ascended to heaven before his resurrection, I will have to disagree with you on that.

    Paul believed he was living at the end of the age
    1 Corinthians 10:11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come
    Peter believed the end was at hand
    1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray
    John believed it was the last hour
    1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour
    James believed that Jesus' coming was near, even at the door.
    James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
    Matthew 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite is near, right at the door.

    So it is no surprise that Paul believed that he would resurrect, put on the heavenly body, and depart heaven within his lifetime. He even states the resurrection is about occur:

    Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, there is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    Indeed it is, and even though we disagree on semantics, we agree on the on the bigger promise of the resurrection. I look forward to seeing you their brother, regardless of our disagreements.

    He counts them as living because of the resurrection, which is the context of the passage.

    The Greeks have to do with the Hellenization of the Jews, especially during the time of Antiochus and onward.

    Hellenistic Jews were around during the early part of the Church:

    Acts 9:29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews,a but they tried to kill him

    I don't believe in soul extinction and I don't believe in the immortality of the soul.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The comma predating the JWs and Bullinger and SDAs is in one Syriac manuscript tradition. One which has spurious verses. However, we both know the Koine Greek would not have commas. As I stated in another post, the positioning of the comma is irrelevant unless one was trying to argue Jesus did not tell the repentant thief he would be that day in Paradise with Him.

    Ruach as breath is just one use of the word. Context is important as your quote below points out nicely:

    Again context is important. If this be true and our actual intake and outtake of oxygen is our spirit, then when Jesus said: “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” where did His committed Spirit go exactly?

    The JW and SDA (some) view is the spirit ceases to exist and cannot exist outside of a body.

    Therefore, if Jesus' spirit did not go back to the Father into His Hands, then where did it go? The SDAs and JWs say nowhere or in the grave. If in the grave what nature is this spirit if it cannot exist outside a mortal or immortal body (or corruptible or incorruptible body)?

    What I'm saying is the Spirit of Christ went exactly were He committed it to...The Father Who is in Heaven. Whether Paradise=Heaven or another place as in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16) is not clear, however, this puts Christ keeping His Promise that the repentant thief indeed was with Jesus in Paradise that day.

    Someone else pointed this out to me but it does not work. Here's why:

    Philippians 1: NASB
    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

    In verse 21 whether he lives or dies it is for Christ.

    Verse 22: If he lives on it will mean fruitful labor and he does not know what to choose (life here or death)

    Verse 23: He has the desire to depart and be with Christ for that is better {is he referring to the Resurrection? Let's see}

    Verse 24: remaining in the flesh is more necessary for the church cause.

    Verse 25: he knows he will remain for their sakes and continue the work given him.

    Summary: If Paul stays here in the flesh it means he can do more work for the sake of the Philippians and larger the church. If he dies He will go to Christ. Within the context, Paul would be departing the Philippians if he died. If he was speaking of the resurrection then he would be leaving the Philippians behind meaning they would not share in the resurrection.

    Every Christian of every age should have the apostles position that the coming of Christ and the resurrection is at hand.

    However, which English language version of the Bible are you using in the bolded in quoted above?

    Three literal translations by committee of Koine Greek scholars:

    King James Bible
    And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    English Standard Version
    having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

    New American Standard Bible
    having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


    Amen brother!

    Yes Jesus is teaching the resurrection and the ultimate state of the patriarchs will be in their incorruptible eternal bodies. However, Jesus still counts them among the living (even though their bodies were dust by then) and says this was true even at the burning bush encounter in Exodus 3:6.

    This is what I believe He meant:

    John 11: NASB
    17So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off; 19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 20Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house. 21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

    Notice even after Martha acknowledges she would see Lazarus at the Resurrection on the last day, Jesus tells her those who are in Him will live even if they die. This includes the patriarchs Jesus mentions as living as God is not a God of the dead but the living.


    Historically accurate. However, as I mentioned I believe to another poster, do you believe Jesus would teach from Hellenized Jewish error when demonstrating a spiritual truth? For example, Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. ..Was Jesus appeasing to an error in doctrine or fable to teach a spiritual truth?

    Did Jesus let 'roll off His back' the fact that His own disciples thought He was a spirit and not a flesh and blood body (Luke 24:39)

    Where does our 'inner man' which is being renewed day by day go when our 'outer man' is decaying?
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    And I could say the same thing. The comma is irrelevant unless one is trying to argue that Jesus did tell the thief that he would be in paradise that same exact day as his death.

    we both agree that Jesus did tell the thief he would be in paradise, that is the most important part. We just disagree on when.

    Did Moses mean that Israel would perish the same day?
    Deuteronomy 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.

    If not, then it is not unreasonable that Jesus meant "surely I tell you today" in a similar manner.

    Correct, it can be translated Spirit, wind, breath. But it does not change the fact that animals have the same breath of life that man does.


    Genesis 7:21-22 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.

    it can also be translated:

    NASB Translation
    air (2), anger (1), blast (2), breath (31), breathless* (1), cool (1), courage (1), despondency* (1), exposed (1), grief* (1), heart (1), inspired (1), mind (3), motives (1), points (1), quick-tempered* (1), side (4), sides (2), Spirit (76), spirit (127), spirits (3), strength (1), temper (2), thoughts* (1), trustworthy* (1), wind (98), winds (7), windy (2), wrath (1)

    Correct, Helps-Word studies states that only the context determines whether it means Spirit, wind, or breath.

    4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

    I don't believe the breath of life is oxygen. I believe the breath of life is the supernatural way in which God animates the fleshly bodies. The spirit that God gives to humans and animals goes back to God who gave it.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    After the author of ecclesiastes made this statement, Jesus still states:
    John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

    So the spirit going back to God does not necessarily mean that upon death God's faithful go immediately to heaven because Jesus clearly states that no one has ever gone to heaven.

    Paul declares his departure has come, but his reward will be given to him on "that day". I would argue, that Paul knew that as soon as he closed his eyes upon physical death, he knew and was confident that in a flash, the blink of an eye, he would open his to the resurrection. Just as when one falls asleep at night, the next moment they open their eyes, its morning.

    2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

    2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet


    YLT:

    Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

    Additionally, it is not far fetched to believe that Paul believed the resurrection was about to occur, as you even agree, the disciples believed Jesus' coming was at hand.

    Right, because of the resurrection. The context of the John passage is also about the resurrection. Not souls going to heaven.

    Where did it go before Jesus came? Definitely not heaven, for Jesus states no one has ascended to heaven in John 3:13

    I would say Jesus was teaching a spiritual truth

    Nope, he made sure to let them know that he had been resurrected.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The distinction being animals were not made in the Image and according to the likeness of God. That distinction has meaning.

    At the time that was true. The righteous resided in Abraham's Bosom and not Heaven.

    Just FYI, the YLT has the comma before Today in Luke 23:43 . :)
     
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