Soul goes to heaven before Resurrection? Soul goes to heaven after resurrection?

Do we immediately go to heaven when we die or no?

  • the soul ascends to heaven BEFORE the resurrection

    Votes: 10 52.6%
  • the soul ascends to heaven AFTER the resurrection

    Votes: 9 47.4%

  • Total voters
    19

redleghunter

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To do as you want, i.e. "refute" (the leaves on the trees) the Scripture you use,
would be both enough but insufficient at the same time -
(sorry but this is from memory at this time as posters don't usually want to go the whole route, even barely ever start)
the deeper goals , the repairing / healing from the roots would
require much more time and space, (or direct revelation from Yahweh thru Jesus/ Spirit)
and so far on this forum after even a few days or weeks getting down to the roots with them relatively 'amicably' went fine
until we got down to the source of the ... ... what is it..... the original thought/ teaching they built upon, which was as known all along in error, but which they did not want to let go of ... so they were very willing to "go along amicably" post to post,
point to point, until we got to that point where their basic error (whether sin or not, not considering here) would be exposed...
then , always so far, they bailed. (with various excuses)...
I take it you are not interested in debating the issue.
 
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ac28

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Jeff the problem is you are using the same semantic rhetoric Bullinger uses. You have not refuted my use of Holy Scriptures because you have not even attempted to address them.

We can start with a very simple passage from the New Testament and from the lips of Christ:

Luke 23: NASB
39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. 47Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent.” 48And all the crowds who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts. 49And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance, seeing these things.

Please address the bolded red and underlined above.

For background I provide the following:

New International Version
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Berean Study Bible
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Christian Standard Bible
And he said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Contemporary English Version
Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."

Good News Translation
Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Bible
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

New Heart English Bible
And he said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I say to you that today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

New American Standard 1977
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.

American Standard Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

English Revised Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Weymouth New Testament
"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Comparing the "Verily I say unto thee" statements in the Gospels:

Verily I say unto thee

No offense intended, but every quote of Luke 23:43 you gave is wrong. I have stopped buying bibles that have the comma wrong in that verse, as all those do. It must be after the word Today, not before. It's an idiom that's used 42 times in Deuteronomy - here's a few - (KJV) 4:26, 39, 6:6, 7:11, 8:1, 11, 19. I've used the same idiom all my life, especially with my kid. I'm telling you right now,.....! or I'm telling you today,.....!
There are a few Bibles that have it right. Rotherham, AOB, FAA, e.g. Here's a good quote from the AOB

43 AND HE SAID TO HIM, “AMEN, NOW I SAY TO YOU, ‘YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.’” †(Jesus did not say that the man would be with him in Paradise that same day. Jesus said basically, "I am telling you right now, You will eventually be with me in the New Heavens & New Earth." The word "Paradise" is the Greek word for "garden" & is the same word for the "Garden of Eden" in the Greek Septuagint. It does not refer to Heaven, nor does it refer to a place in Hell or underground. It refers to the time frame of Revelation 21-22 after all things will be fulfilled & there will no longer be any curse, and the Garden of Eden will be upon the entire Earth. We know that JESUS did not go to Heaven until 40 days after He rose from the dead. Joh_20:17. The man will be in the Paradise of the New Earth.)

Here's Bullinger's Appendix #173, which is quite good.

COMPANION BIBLE. APPENDIX
173.
"TO-DAY" (Luke 23:43).
The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rests
wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any
kind till the ninth century, and then it is only a dot (in the middle of the line)
separating each word. See Ap. 94.V. i..3.
The Verb "to say", when followed by hoti, introduces the ipsissima verba of what
is said; and answers to our quotation marks. So here (in Luke 23:43), in the
absence of hoti = "that", there may be a doubt as to the actual words included in
the dependent clause. But the doubt is resolved (1) by the common Hebrew
idiom, "I say unto thee this day", which is constantly used for very solemn
emphasis (See note on Deut. 4:26); as well as (2) by the usage observable in
other passages where the verb is connected with the Gr. semeron = to-day.
1. With hoti : --
l Mark 14:30 : "Verily I say unto thee, that (hoti) 'this day ... thou shalt
deny me thrice.' "
l Luke 4:21 : "And He began to say unto them, that (hoti) 'This day is this
scripture fulfilled in your ears.' "
l Luke 5:26 : "Saying (hoti =that), 'We have seen strange things to-day.' "
l Luke 19:9 : "Jesus said unto him that (hoti), this day is salvation come
into this house.' "
For other examples of the verb "to say", followed by hoti, but not connected with
semeron (to-day), see Matt. 14:26; 16:18; 21:3; 26:34; 27:47; Mark
1:40; 6:14, 15, 18, 35; 9:26; 14:25. Luke 4:24, 41; 15:27; 17:10; 19:7.
2. Without hoti : --
On the other hand, in the absence of hoti (= that), the relation of the word "today"
must be determined by the context.
Luke 22:34 : "And He said, 'I tell thee, Peter, in no wise shall a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow today
before thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest Me.' " Here the word "today"
is connected with the verb "crow", because the context requires it.
Compare Heb. 4:7.
It is the same in Luke 23:43 : "And Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say unto thee today
[or this day (*1), when, though they were about to die, this man had
expressed so great faith in Messiah's coming Kingdom, and therefore in the
Lord's resurrection to be its King -- now, under such solemn circumstances] thou
shalt be, with Me, in Paradise.' " For when Messiah shall reign His Kingdom will
convert the promised land into a Paradise. Read Isa. 35, and see Note on Ecc.
2:5.
We must notice also the Article before "Paradise". It is "THE Paradise", viz. the
paradise of which the prophets tell in such glowing language, when the Lord
shall come in His Kingdom. See Ps. 67:4, 6; 72:6, 7, 16, 17. Isa. 4:2; 30:23,
24; 35:1, 2, 5, 6; 41:18, 20. Jer. 31:5, 12. Ezek. 34:25-27; 36:29, 30;
47:8, 9, 12. Hos. 2:18, 21, 22. Joel 3:18. Amos 9:13-15. Zech. 8:12.
It has no connexion with Babylonian, Jewish and Romish tradition, but is a direct
answer to the malefactor's prayer. His prayer referred to the Lord's coming and
His Kingdom; and, if the Lord's answer was direct, the promise must have
referred to that coming and to that Kingdom, and not to anything that was to
happen on that day on which the words were being spoken.
It is alleged that the Lord's promise was a reply to the man's thought; but this
is an assumption for which no justification can be found. Moreover, how can we
know what his thought was, except by the words he uttered? The Lewis Codex of
the Syrian N.T. reads in v. 39 : "save Thyself and us to-day". So the Lord's
word "to-day" may have reference to the revilings of the one, as well as to the
request of the other.
(*1) It is rendered "to-day" eighteen times in the Gospels, Hebrews and
James; but "this day" twenty-three times (five times in Matthew; once in
Mark; four times in Luke; nine times in Acts; once in Romans; twice in
2Corinthians; and once in Hebrews).

The best study of Lazarus and the Rich Man I've found, was written by Otis Q. Sellers of seedandbread.org - 48 pages - I have a bound copy of it - hard to find

https://seedandbread.org/download/A...s-Sellers/SS18-The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus-1.pdf

Great place for free Bullinger (and other good ones) downloads. I have most of them as hardbacks. The Figures of Speech book and his Lexicon are gems. I've been using his Companion Bible for 30 years. Especially for the Old Testament and the vast amount of Appendices, it's still the best study Bible out there. However, the word is that he died at John 10 and, instead of using Charles Welch, the only logical person, to finish it, they choose Sir Robert Anderson and rushed it to publication. The result was that much of the NT was not nearly as informative as the OT. All the Appendices are Bullinger's, I'm pretty sure. Anderson wrote some great books, though. Many on the 2nd link below. It's a mid-Acts site, it seems, so I rarely go on there.

https://www.fellowshipbiblechurchorlando.org/bullinger
https://www.fellowshipbiblechurchorlando.org/grace-library
 
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Bilo

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agree sheol has 2 parts divided by a gulf
1. paradise
----gulf--------
2. hades ...place or torment

however I am not sure if Jesus took these souls in Paradise out yet...
but I do believe He crossed over this gulf and took some out...
of hades or the place of torment where the rich man was.....
at His resurection and brought them into Paradise.....
If there are 2-3 Heavens this would make sense.....

ephesians 4:8-9
When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
1 Peter 4:18-20
He went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

My NKJV reads 4:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (20)who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long suffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,...

I think this passage refers to Jesus declaring His victory to the imprisoned Angels. I don't believe that Jesus freed anyone from the place of torment. If we don't have Faith Alone in Jesus Alone prior to death there are no do overs. The whole idea of purgatory denies the finished work at the Cross.
 
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redleghunter

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No offense intended, but every quote of Luke 23:43 you gave is wrong. I have stopped buying bibles that have the comma wrong in that verse, as all those do.
No offense taken. 500 years of Koine Greek scholars translating the Bible to English disagrees with your assertion.

It must be after the word Today, not before.

Yes it must be for you and Bullinger. If not his entire theology falls apart.

There are a few Bibles that have it right. Rotherham, AOB, FAA,

Ah the giants of Bible translations with their own built in interpretations telling us every committee of Hebrew and Greek scholars got it wrong.

The Rotherham Bible was translated by one man, Joseph Bryant Rotherham.

The translation itself is very difficult and peculiar, and indeed it can scarcely be called English. It resembles the kind of barbarous and occasionally absurd output one gets from translation software applications. The reason is, Rotherham produced the version in the same way that a computer would—he mechanically reproduced the order of the Greek words, no matter how unatural the result in English; he used the same English gloss for all occurrences of a Greek word, without any regard for contextual appropriateness; and he rendered the tenses of the Greek verbs into stereotyped English tenses, without any allowance for the differences between English and Greek grammar. He also did such things as refrain from using the English definite article "the" where the text did not have the Greek article, despite the fact that English usage does not correspond to Greek usage in this matter. Moreover, he seems to have had uninformed notions about the meaning of various Greek words, often preferring a 'root' meaning arrived at by some etymological fallacy. And so we see in the page above such renderings as "Why any longer am even I as a sinner to be judged;" (following the Greek word order); "do we screen ourselves" (giving an eccentric 'root' meaning to the Greek word); "a way of peace they did not get to know" (omitting the article, and attempting to represent the Greek aorist with a 'punctiliar' verbal tense in English), and so forth. Some flagrant examples of these tendencies to be found on other pages are:

Romans 8:31-32. "What, then, shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [shall be] against us? 32 He, at least, who his own Son did not spare, but in behalf of us all delivered him up,—how shall he not also, with him, all things, on us, in favour bestow?"

Mark 7:1-4 "And the Pharisees and certain of the Scribes, who came from Jerusalem, are gathering themselves unto him; 2 and seeing certain of his disciples, that with profane hands, that is, unwashed, they are eating the loaves 3 (for the Pharisees and all the Jews, unless perchance with care they wash [their] hands, eat not;—holding fast the tradition of the elders. 4 And—from market—unless perchance they immerse themselves, they eat not. And many other things there are which they accepted to hold fast:—immersions of cups and measures, and copper [vessels], and couches), 5 and the Pharisees and the Scribes question him, For what reason are thy disciples not walking according to the tradition of the elders; but with profane hands are eating the loaf?"
The outlandish syntax of Romans 8:32 suggests to us one reason why "the humble countrywoman" mentioned by Rotherham in his Preface might have been "begging to have it read to her again and again," as he says. In Mark 7:4, we note especially the word "immerse" used for baptizo, which is an example of an etymological 'root' meaning being preferred over the actual meaning of the Greek word, as determined by context and usage. Rotherham regularly translates baptizo "immerse," and John the Baptist is even called "John the Immerser" in the version. (Needless to say, Rotherham held to the usual teaching of the Churches of Christ with regard to the mode of baptism.) The inappropriateness of "unless perchance" in verses 3 and 4, and of "the loaf" in verse 5, is also painfully obvious.
More: http://www.bible-researcher.com/rotherham.html

The AOB Bible is also a one man translation:

The Alpha & Omega Bible: A Study Bible and Restoration of the Original Scriptures. This translation is a compilation of scriptures from the Paleo-Hebrew fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a revision of Brenton’s translation of the Greek Septuagint (LXX), as well as the the Codex Sinaiticus, and the Codex Alexandrinus, including the New Testament from the Codex Vaticanus.

To the glory of the Father, for the Kingdom & for the body of Christ.
This translation is meant to restore the original Holy Scriptures (but translated into English) and to provide the most accurate translation of the bible, as much as I am able to do so with the understanding & knowledge bestowed upon me via The Holy Spirit. I take the translating of Holy Scriptures EXTREMELY SERIOUS. It is a very fearful thing to me to translate the Holy Scriptures. I do NOT take it very lightly. I would not want for my name to be erased from the Book of Life due to taking away from or adding to Holy Scripture! (Rev.22:19) So I have NOT jumped quickly into doing this task. But I feel that now is the time to publish this translation for the help of the Body of Christ, the Church.

The AOB has no peer scholar reviews. It does not even register on the UK and American Bible Society list of versions. Nor does Rotherham:

http://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/a-brief-description-of-popular-bible-translations

The FAA Bible does not even register in a Google search.

Finally, the Companion Bible is a study Bible authored by E.W. Bullinger! What a surprise.

You gave me three Bible translations which were translated by three individual men. Their own self assured fallible magisterium.

On that comma being in the wrong place?... It has nothing to do with idioms. It has everything to do with the "Verily" statements of Christ. Here they are and notice the consistency of the Bible translations in placing a comma after each Verily statement:

Mat 5:26 - Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Mat 26:34 - Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mar 14:30 - And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luk 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jhn 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:11 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Jhn 13:38 - Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Jhn 21:18 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Move the comma in all the others and let me know if the verses make sense. Luke 23:43 was consistent with the "Verily" statements of Christ.

Shopping around for a Bible translation to fit a theological thesis is the height of eisegesis.

Here's Bullinger's Appendix #173, which is quite good.
It is becoming abundantly clear Bullinger is the sole source for all these theories on the inner man or soul/spirit death.
 
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redleghunter

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Paradise is the description of a place, not a location.

Even in the English language they mean the same:

place
plās/
noun
  1. 1.
    a particular position or point in space.
    "there were still some remote places in the world"
    synonyms: location, site, spot, setting, position, situation, area, region, locale;More

  2. 2.
    a portion of space available or designated for or being used by someone.
    "they hurried to their places at the table"
    synonyms: seat, chair, space
    "a place was reserved for her"
lo·ca·tion
lōˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
  1. a particular place or position.
    "the property is set in a convenient location"
    synonyms: position, place, situation, site, locality, locale, spot, whereabouts, point;More
    • an actual place or natural setting in which a film or broadcast is made, as distinct from a simulation in a studio.
      "the movie was filmed entirely on location"
 
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ac28

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Even in the English language they mean the same:

place
plās/
noun
  1. 1.
    a particular position or point in space.
    "there were still some remote places in the world"
    synonyms: location, site, spot, setting, position, situation, area, region, locale;More

  2. 2.
    a portion of space available or designated for or being used by someone.
    "they hurried to their places at the table"
    synonyms: seat, chair, space
    "a place was reserved for her"
lo·ca·tion
lōˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
  1. a particular place or position.
    "the property is set in a convenient location"
    synonyms: position, place, situation, site, locality, locale, spot, whereabouts, point;More
    • an actual place or natural setting in which a film or broadcast is made, as distinct from a simulation in a studio.
      "the movie was filmed entirely on location"
I'll say it differently.
Paradise is the character of a place, not the location
 
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redleghunter

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My NKJV reads 4:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (20)who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long suffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,...

I think this passage refers to Jesus declaring His victory to the imprisoned Angels. I don't believe that Jesus freed anyone from the place of torment. If we don't have Faith Alone in Jesus Alone prior to death there are no do overs. The whole idea of purgatory denies the finished work at the Cross.
Indeed. Piper has a good piece on the subject:

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-christ-ever-descend-to-hell
 
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redleghunter

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This is an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven.
Can you link me to the Catechism of the Catholic Church supporting your comments above?
 
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redleghunter

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Lazarus and the Rich Man was nearly identical to what the Pharisees believed about Hell, from their traditions - see Josephus' "Discourse on Hades". Christ was satirically insulting the Pharisees by showing then how stupid they were for believing such garbage. And, of course, it was a parable, in a line of other parables Christ told, which is defined as a ficticious story.
What evidence do you have to support this assertion?

The discourse leading up to the story of Lazarus and the rich man gives no indication Jesus was ridiculing the Pharisees. What other stories or parables did Jesus teach where He indulged in ridiculing His audience?

Let's take a look:

Luke 16: NASB
14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. 15And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

16“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17“But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.


Notice bolded above. Pharisees lovers of money those highly esteemed detestable in the site of God.

Not surprising what follows is a story of a rich man and the poor diseased beggar Lazarus:

19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and thatnone may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Once again something outrageous as claiming Christ was somehow making fun of a Pharisee held belief to show how absurd souls going to Hades was must be the case because you and Bullinger need this to be so. If not it completely refutes his soul/spirit extinction theory.

Jesus always taught the people on subjects and concepts they understood and believed to be true. His audience would be familiar with this story of Lazarus and Jesus would not be teaching from error. He never used error to teach a point.
 
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mark kennedy

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Paradise is the description of a place, not a location.
Ok, Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise and place means the same thing as location.
 
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claninja

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nd He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.”

The original Greek manuscripts did not contain a comma, rendering the Greek to be translated as "truly I say you today you shall be with me in paradise".

It is not unreasonable to state that Jesus stated "truly I say to you today, you..."

Deuteronomy 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.


Jesus did not ascend until after his resurrection. This lends evidence that the thief was not in paradise that same day he died.
John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Peter stated that David was still in his grave and did not ascend to heaven,this was many days was after Jesus had been crucified. This adds to more evidence that the thief did not ascend to heaven the day he died.
Acts 2:29,43 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says
 
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mark kennedy

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The original Greek manuscripts did not contain a comma, rendering the Greek to be translated as "truly I say you today you shall be with me in paradise".

It is not unreasonable to state that Jesus stated "truly I say to you today, you..."

Deuteronomy 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.


Jesus did not ascend until after his resurrection. This lends evidence that the thief was not in paradise that same day he died.
John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Peter stated that David was still in his grave and did not ascend to heaven, this many days was after Jesus had been crucified. This adds to more evidence that the thief did not ascend to heaven the day he died.
Acts 2:29,43 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says
The question of whether the theif on the cross wss in paradise that day depends on the construction of the passage in Luke. Basically the verb prevails because everything else in the verse is subordinate to that verb being conjugated a specific way
The comma appears to be an invention of someone manipulating the English translation and the only ones translating it that way are the Jehovah's Witnesses. The question becomes, what is the verb because everything else in the statement is subject to the voice and tense it's used in.
 
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mark kennedy

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Lazarus and the Rich Man was nearly identical to what the Pharisees believed about Hell, from their traditions - see Josephus' "Discourse on Hades". Christ was satirically insulting the Pharisees by showing then how stupid they were for believing such garbage. And, of course, it was a parable, in a line of other parables Christ told, which is defined as a ficticious story.

There is no mention of any sin or wrong doing in the passage. The only explanation given for the positions both were in is in vs 25
" But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

As a method of suppressing the complaints of the poor, the Pharisees told the poor and invalid that, when they died, everything would do a 180 degree swing and they would then get all the blessings and good things. Christ's genius turned the tables on the Pharisees by saying if the poor that had all bad things during their life and, after death, got all the good things, the opposite must also be true. Those who had all good things during their life, would get nothing but bad things after they die.

If any part of this were true, it would be repeated several times in the OT. But, no, not a word. It's obviously a fictitious story, like ALL parables are. That nonsense about it being a true story because names were used is just that - nonsense.

I've always thought that there are people out there that relish the idea that those who are less pious than they are deserve to spend eternity being tortured by out loving god, even though Christ died for the sins of every one who has ever lived, including unbelievers. Some idiots believe that, if a person doesn't believe in hell, they are not saved.
First of all what Jesus taught concerning the rich man and Laxerous isnt a parable. When Jesus taught a parable it starts with the kingdom of heaven is like...that is a qualifier of figurative language, a like or as that qualifies it as such. Secondly Jesus mocking them by saying what the believed also requires a qualifier, Jesus would have contrasted it with the truth. In both cases you have no indication of a comparison, the argument is fanciful at best.
 
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redleghunter

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The original Greek manuscripts did not contain a comma
Obviously.
It is not unreasonable to state that Jesus stated "truly I say to you today, you..."
Not unreasonable but clearly irrelevant as for your view and Bullinger's the comma must be after "Today." I think the dude dying a horrible death kind of knew Jesus was speaking to him that day.

Jesus did not ascend until after his resurrection. This lends evidence that the thief was not in paradise that same day he died.
John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”
This only works if one has the sunk belief that the soul cannot exist beyond the mortal body. Jesus's soul/spirit was committed to the Father that day as Jesus said in Luke 23:46. Therefore, both He and the repentant thief were in Paradise that day.

With the soul extinction theory of Bullinger, and Jehovah's Witnesses the interpretation of other passages are painted by the presupposition that the 'inner man' or soul/spirit cannot in any way be apart from the mortal body.

Just look at the verse you quote above. You automatically assume the same therefore, there was no way the repentant thief could be in Paradise the same day, and thus the "Today" had to mean Jesus was reminding the man that 'today' was really "Today."

Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Peter stated that David was still in his grave and did not ascend to heaven,this was many days was after Jesus had been crucified. This adds to more evidence that the thief did not ascend to heaven the day he died.
Acts 2:29,43 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says
Yes, Peter was preaching the Resurrection and that our Savior's Body did not see decay as He rose from the dead and David obviously did not rise from the dead and his body is still in the tomb.

Once again, the sunk presupposition that the "inner man" which is being renewed each day (2 Corinthians 4:16) as we live here for the Lord cannot be separated from a rotting mortal corpse.

Yet Jesus did say the following:

Luke 20: NASB
37“But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. 38“Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.” 39Some of the scribes answered and said, “Teacher, You have spoken well.” 40For they did not have courage to question Him any longer about anything.

As far as I know, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not bodily rise from the dead but Jesus counts them as among the living.
 
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DavidPT

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The following are my thoughts on the matter, in regards to Luke 23:43.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Interestingly, paradise is also used in the following passage.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The paradise of God meant here, where is it? It's the same place the tree of life is in the midst of, so we at least know that much at this point.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


The paradise of God is obviously meaning the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. The same place Jesus will be dwelling in forever once it comes comes down from God out of heaven.

Based on all of this, I interpret Luke 23:43 to mean the following. BTW, where the comma is in the KJV, I don't see it changing anything much by changing it's location. Even with it where it is, that doesn't have to mean Jesus was only meaning the moment the thief died, that at that very second he would be in paradise with Him. It could simply mean, today, this very day, your faith has assured you that you shall be with Me in paradise. IOW Luke 23:43 was a prophecy about dwelling with Jesus forever where Jesus would be dwelling forever, that being in the new Jerusalem, the paradise of God.

So IOW maybe like such----

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day because of your faith shalt thou be with me in paradise, the new Jerusalem, when it comes down from God out of heaven.

Maybe others disagree with me here, but I see this as interpreting Scripture with Scripture myself. I'm not seeing where interpreting it like this contradicts anything. Either Jesus eventually dwells in the NJ forever, and that the thief will be dwelling with Him there as well, or neither of them will be dwelling there. And we already know from the clues in Revelation 2:7, that the paradise of God is meaning the NJ according to Revelation 21 and 22.
 
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