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Soteriology and Debate

atpollard

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The context of Romans 10:9-10 influences how those verses should be understood, so you should be willing to discuss verses 5-8 and 16, especially because it would make no sense for Paul to say what he did in those verses if "believing in your heart" is the opposite of living in obedience to God's law. Furthermore, it is also relevant to discuss the broader context of verses that speak about what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord, to believe, and to be saved. For example, in Luke 6:46, Jesus asked why they called him Lord but didn't do what he said, confessing that Jesus is Lord is committing to do what he said. If you want to base your understanding of how God saves only on Romans 10:9-10 while ignoring the surrounding and broader context, then you are quote mining.

Our actions reveal our beliefs, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief with our actions. For example, in James 2:17-18, faith without works is dead and he would show his faith by his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is described as breaking faith.
In my opinion you are making a common argument whose innate flaw is that it attempts to place Ephesians 2:10 (For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.) before Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.). In Scripture, walking in the GOOD WORKS is the "fruit" that grows from the transformation wrought by our SALVATION; that is why Ephesians 2:8 is clear that it is "not of works" and precedes verse 10. That is why by Ephesians 2:10 we are already His workmanship when we walk in the good works which He prepared in advance for us to walk in. It is an error to attempt to earn a free gift by insisting on "walking in good works" while we are yet "dead in our sins".

Frankly, prior to Chapter 10, Romans is explicitly clear on what the purpose of the law was and our ability to follow it to please God ... Paul had already firmly rejected obedience to the Law as a path to salvation:
  • Romans 3:20-21 [NKJV] Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
  • Romans 3:27-28 [NKJV] Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
  • Romans 4:13-16 [NKJV] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world [was] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression. Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
  • Romans 6:14-15 [NKJV] For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
  • Romans 7:4-7 [NKJV] Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
  • Romans 8:2-4 [NKJV] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God [did] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
  • Romans 9:31-32 [NKJV] but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because [they did] not [seek it] by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

FAITH​

not works of the law.
 
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atpollard

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well if u want to argue the standards disagreements seem to center around the requirement of lack there of for Baptism, and or Repentance, and or some works, any one of these issues will generally start a war.
Yup ... so I carefully chose verses and a position that says NONE OF THEM ARE ESSENTIAL!
"Confess" and "Believe" are the only two VERBS (action words) that the Holy Spirit inpired Paul to write that link "[US]" to "[SAVED]". ;)

This is the "Debate" section and it seemed to be filling with teaching monologues, so I took a shot at changing that.
The beauty of the RULES for the "Soteriology and Debate" sub-forum is that disagreement is encouraged, but "polite" is expected. A heated discussion of ideas without personal attacks would be a nice change of pace on Christian Forums (in general).
 
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atpollard

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“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 5:24 ... for anyone that wanted to look it up and read the context.
 
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atpollard

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The context of Romans 10:9-10 influences how those verses should be understood, so you should be willing to discuss verses 5-8 and 16, especially because it would make no sense for Paul to say what he did in those verses if "believing in your heart" is the opposite of living in obedience to God's law.
Just a quick disclaimer: I am not "against" obeying the commandments or doing good. I am just careful not to confuse the "roots" and the "fruit". Salvation is the TRANSFORMATION that we undergo from "God's enemies" to "God's Children". The ROOTS (cause) of this transformation is NOT our Good Works; the ROOTS are God's Grace and Gift. The FRUIT (result) that flows because of this transformation, is our Good Works. Thus our Good Works are outward evidence of a prior inner change. The Good Works do not cause the Salvation, the Salvation causes the Good Works.

If a tree produces no fruit, it has a good reason to wonder if it might be dead. Same thing with a person whose faith produces no good works.
 
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sandman

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“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.



At the time Jesus spoke this ….salvation by grace was not available they were still under the law.

And the context of Jhn 5:24

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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Soyeong

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In my opinion you are making a common argument whose innate flaw is that it attempts to place Ephesians 2:10 (For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.) before Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.). In Scripture, walking in the GOOD WORKS is the "fruit" that grows from the transformation wrought by our SALVATION; that is why Ephesians 2:8 is clear that it is "not of works" and precedes verse 10. That is why by Ephesians 2:10 we are already His workmanship when we walk in the good works which He prepared in advance for us to walk in. It is an error to attempt to earn a free gift by insisting on "walking in good works" while we are yet "dead in our sins".
In Titus 2:11-14, it notably does not say either that our salvation is the result of doing those works or that those works are the result of our salvation, but it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, so this is not something that is cause and effect.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it has nothing to do with trying to earn the free gift as a wage. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law (Romans 10:2-4).

There can be any number of reasons for obeying God's law other than for the goal of earning our salvation as a wage, such as for the goal of knowing God and Jesus, so verses that speak against that misunderstanding of the goal of the law should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to obey God's law for a correct goal. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by our works, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of our salvation from not doing good works. While Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than for the incorrect goal of earning it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

Frankly, prior to Chapter 10, Romans is explicitly clear on what the purpose of the law was and our ability to follow it to please God ... Paul had already firmly rejected obedience to the Law as a path to salvation:

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin. For example, in Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which he served with his flesh, and he also contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life. After all, the Spirit is God. Furthermore, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies or God, who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded, which is why we are not justified by them. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11.

  • Romans 3:20-21 [NKJV] Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God can be earned through our obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe, which is why there are many verses that speak against the misunderstanding of the goal of the law of earning our righteousness.

  • Romans 4:13-16 [NKJV] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world [was] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression. Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, all of the promises were made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that. God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way to inherit the promise through faith of being a blessing to the nations is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to walk in God's way in obedience to His law, and Jesus was sent as the fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). So the children of Abraham are not multiplied through physical descendants, but through teaching others to walk in God's way in obedience to His law through faith in the promise (Romans 9:6-8).

  • Romans 6:14-15 [NKJV] For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

In Romans 6:14, it refers to the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law, but are not under the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the only way to become righteous by grace through faith that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets, and this is what it means to be under grace.

Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God's law and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so again obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of the experience of eternal life, and Romans 7 should not be interpreted in a way that is contrary to this:

  • Romans 7:4-7 [NKJV] Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
In Romans 7:1-3, there is no point at which the woman was set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, and if she were to get married to a second husband after the death of her first, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in verses 4 that in the same way we have therefore been set free from all of the Law of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so it doesn't even make sense to interpret Romans 7:4 as saying that we need to reject the way that Christ walked in order to become unified in him. Keep in mind that in Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so if Romans 7:5-6 were referring to the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passion in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto is a law that is sinful, but Romans 7:7 says that the Law of God is not sinful, but how we know what sin is, so it also can't be referring to the same law as Romans 7:5. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that inhibits our obedience to the Law of God, or that Paul did not delight in obeying should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin rather than the Law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

  • Romans 9:31-32 [NKJV] but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because [they did] not [seek it] by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

FAITH​

not works of the law.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were earned through works rather than pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. Again, in Romans 10:5-8, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in direct connection to Romans 10:9-10.
 
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Soyeong

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At the time Jesus spoke this ….salvation by grace was not available they were still under the law.

And the context of Jhn 5:24

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so salvation has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him his way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as Abraham and everyone else. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey it.
 
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d taylor

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The very CONCEPT of an "unsaved believer" needing to be saved strikes me as a self-contradiction (like a married bachelor).
Sorry, but I will need more than your brief claim that it is so to warrant more of a response. Would you care to exegete Romans 10 to support your claims:
  1. an "unsaved believer" actually can exist.
  2. Romans 10 is talking about how "believers" get "saved".

I did not say any thing about an unsaved believer. I said Romans 10:9-10 is addressing the saving of a believer. This article addresses this.
Has This Passage Ever Bothered You? – Romans 10:9-10 – Grace Evangelical Society
 
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d taylor

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At the time Jesus spoke this ….salvation by grace was not available they were still under the law.

And the context of Jhn 5:24

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Salvation has always been by grace, the law was never meant for salvation.
 
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atpollard

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Sometimes I honestly wonder if other people live on the same "world" that I do. I read something like THIS:

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

... and I think "Yes and Amen", because those words agree so completely with what I remember of life before God SNATCHED me out of the world. Then I read on:

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

... and I can remember that day like it was yesterday. All of God and none of me. No deep theology, just His overwhelming reality ... tears streaming down my face ... and a new reality: I belonged to HIM.

Finally I come to:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

... which perfectly describes my daily life now, striving and stumbling and overcoming and 'keeping on keeping on': ever forward, ever Christ-ward, never abandoning HOPE or tiring of DOING GOOD ... although, if honest, often hard tested and sometimes less successful than others.

Then I read all this THEOLOGY about how God teaches us to obey his Laws in order that we might be some day be saved, and I start to wonder if the internet somehow connects me to some other 'world' where some other 'god' saves some other 'people' by some completely different rubric than My God, saved me.

[This is not any form of personal attack on anyone. Just an expression of utter incredulity at the chasm between the empirical reality that I know and the theoretical reality that other people describe.]
 
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atpollard

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I did not say any thing about an unsaved believer. I said Romans 10:9-10 is addressing the saving of a believer. This article addresses this.
Has This Passage Ever Bothered You? – Romans 10:9-10 – Grace Evangelical Society
OK, the article helps a lot. It is the expression "saving a believer" (absent any additional clarification) that carries the innate assumption that "a believer NEEDS saving" when in common Christian parlance, being a "believer" and being "saved" are synonymous. So you never SAID anything about an "unsaved believer" but your brief original post implied it. :hug:
 
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Soyeong

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Salvation has always been by grace, the law was never meant for salvation.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
 
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d taylor

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OK, the article helps a lot. It is the expression "saving a believer" (absent any additional clarification) that carries the innate assumption that "a believer NEEDS saving" when in common Christian parlance, being a "believer" and being "saved" are synonymous. So you never SAID anything about an "unsaved believer" but your brief original post implied it. :hug:

Sorry about that, i was on a short time on being able to write, so i tried to just say it in a simple way. But really did leave out too much.
 
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d taylor

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Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
Salvation is not from sin Jesus took away the sin of the world. The sin problem is over. as Jesus said it is finished. I have received God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation long ago, and i still sin.
 
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Soyeong

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Sometimes I honestly wonder if other people live on the same "world" that I do. I read something like THIS:

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

... and I think "Yes and Amen", because those words agree so completely with what I remember of life before God SNATCHED me out of the world. Then I read on:

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

... and I can remember that day like it was yesterday. All of God and none of me. No deep theology, just His overwhelming reality ... tears streaming down my face ... and a new reality: I belonged to HIM.

Finally I come to:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

... which perfectly describes my daily life now, striving and stumbling and overcoming and 'keeping on keeping on': ever forward, ever Christ-ward, never abandoning HOPE or tiring of DOING GOOD ... although, if honest, often hard tested and sometimes less successful than others.

Then I read all this THEOLOGY about how God teaches us to obey his Laws in order that we might be some day be saved, and I start to wonder if the internet somehow connects me to some other 'world' where some other 'god' saves some other 'people' by some completely different rubric than My God, saved me.

[This is not any form of personal attack on anyone. Just an expression of utter incredulity at the chasm between the empirical reality that I know and the theoretical reality that other people describe.]
I'm not sure if this is directed at me or someone else in this thread, but I've never seen anyone claim that God teaches us to obey His laws in order that we might be some day be saved. The Bible speaks about our salvation in the present tense, such as in Titus 2:11-14 and Philippians 2:12, so that if what I have been speaking in regard to, which is God graciously saving us from continuing to live in transgression of His law by teaching us to live in obedience to it. While Ephesians 2:8-10 denies that we can earn our salvation by our works, that does not mean that our salvation does not involve doing works for some other reason, especially because verse 10 says that we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so doing good works is still intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving graciously saving us from not doing good works.
 
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sandman

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Salvation has always been by grace, the law was never meant for salvation.
In a sense ...you are right.... but it was salvation by faith, and it could be lost, unlike what was accomplished for us through Jesus Christ.
 
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d taylor

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In a sense ...you are right.... but it was salvation by faith, and it could be lost, unlike what was accomplished for us through Jesus Christ.

David, Moses, Adam, Saul, etc.. when they trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life they were secured as any believer today. No one over anytime frame, could have ever lost their Eternal Life salvation gift. Only believers in the Old Testament times could lose the Holy Spirit, but only specific believers received The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not bestowed upon all believers in the Old Testament times.
 
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sandman

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David, Moses, Adam, Saul, etc.. when they trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life they were secured as any believer today. No one over anytime frame, could have ever lost their Eternal Life salvation gift. Only believers in the Old Testament times could lose the Holy Spirit, but only specific believers received The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not bestowed upon all believers in the Old Testament times.

You switched up on me a bit dealing with committed believers ...We were originally talking about those who never confessed Romans_10:9&10 ... But I thought we were still on the same track of uncommitted people prior to the new covenant... and others who may have walked for a while and drifted away...
Your all star team along with many more are definitely in the book of life...
 
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d taylor

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You switched up on me a bit dealing with committed believers ...We were originally talking about those who never confessed Romans_10:9&10 ... But I thought we were still on the same track of uncommitted people prior to the new covenant... and others who may have walked for a while and drifted away...
Your all star team along with many more are definitely in the book of life...

You call Saul an all star. it is really simple a person has either believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life or they have not. From Adam to now the only condition given to man to receive eternal life is faith in The Messiah. The only difference from now to say Abraham, is now we know the human identity of the promised Messiah (Jesus). Abraham or anyone of that time knew God was sending a redeemer Genesis 3:15 but these people did not have a complete picture of exactly who this person would be. But still they placed their faith in the promise one for Eternal Life.
 
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John Mullally

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well if u want to argue the standards disagreements seem to center around the requirement of lack there of for Baptism, and or Repentance, and or some works, any one of these issues will generally start a war.
The contrast between the following 3 passages has interested me as the passages can be thought of as instructing how to be saved. But they are worded differently - so how does one rectify.
  1. Romans 10:9-10
  2. Acts 2:38-39
  3. Mark 16:15-16

Baptism (referred in 2 & 3) is a strong form of confession(referred in 1) - baptism is what Christ commands, so believers (which I assume want to please Jesus) will be led to do it. People that believe that Christ rose from the dead (1 & 3) with something more than mental ascent will repent. (2)
 
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