Sometimes the Real Answer is Beyond what Humans can Believe

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think the reason for an atheist to become interested in Christianity is the commandments like this one that one finds if they read in the accounts called the gospels about the words and deeds of Christ:

"...love your neighbor as yourself..."

"...love your enemies..."

Stuff that is very interesting to anyone thinking about history and how it could be that humans could ever have true peace instead of only wars, gradually more and more dangerous, intersperced with various longer and shorter armistices.

A reason to become curious to learn more.

That might be true if we saw Christians paying more than lip service to them...

'Love your neighbor' is a decent aspiration (mostly), but frankly, in the real world, 'Love your enemies' needs very careful interpretation.

E.T.A. Oops! gazumped by Paulos23.

 

[Paulos23]

What if you were looking in the wrong place....or for something specific? what if He is trying to find YOU here and give you everything, while you were to busy looking there to find SOMEthing?

If god was trying to give me something, he would know how to get my attention. If he does exist, then he would know how to convert me.

Maybe it was time for you to stop looking so that you can be found....

Already have. Nothing so far.

At least you realize you haven't found anything.......there are many to stop seeking because they feel they have something already....but do not.....

The hardest thing is to know what you don't know. Or to say "I don't know".

I don't know if there is a god, but I have no reason to believe in one.

Yes one day at a time....not looking for tomorrow because it will never come....now is the time we should think about.

Yes, you must also plant the seed....give water....and then wait.........no matter how much you seek for the strawberry, it will not appear before it is supposed to appear.

I don't think you are getting what I was trying to convey....

It doesn't matter what the world is made of, be it a simulation or a dream the supernatural. If you don't have the evidence for a higher existence, it doesn't make sense to believe in it or strive for it. Focusing on the world in front of you how it is rather then how you imagine it to be is more realistic, rather than hunting for imaginary little people with wings.

 

[Halbhh]

Funny it is those words not being followed by Christians that was one of the things that lead me away.

And those ideas have been around longer then the Bible and Christianity is not the sole holder of those ideas, as shown by the actions of some Christians.

Now I am not saying that I don't want to know if there is a god out there. But nothing I have found or seen gives me the idea that there is a personal god.

I also left in part because of hypocritical people.

Fortunately though I was curious enough to want to know what Christ actually said in more detail -- which it turns out doesn't line up with any ideology. All sorts of commonplace things I could hear from (some) 'Christians' turned out to be distant from what Christ said actually.

It would be interesting to find even vaugely similar cousins of "love your enemy" as compared to the very different other good rules such as the very common variations on "refrain from attacking" (these are not the same as love of course; if Fred doesn't assault Ted, it doesn't prove Fred loves Ted, not by itself, of course). Even the wonderful variations on "do good to others" isn't yet what we know is love, though it's closer and overlapping in ways. Where do you see such a clear form as outright "love your enemy" (meaning actually loving them, not merely being kind) appearing previously?

We do know that human truths -- a way to live is 'true' if its the best ways to live life in terms of its results -- that truths must appear over and over. Simply because they are true (the best possible way to do things).

If not the best way, an idea instead doesn't appeal so much, and is less emphasized and respected. Truths can be found, and then are cherished and repeated.

Truths about how to live life are not originated, of course, but must be intrinsic, even just by definition of simply being what is best for humans as the way to live. Therefore, since they preexist our knowing them, all of them could theoretically be discovered.

One of the things that made me more interested in Jesus of Nazareth is because His sayings are like an intersection set of all the best ideas in various wisdom traditions, indicating a superior level of insight even over various other wise teachers. Next, He was able to say them in a clearer way. Again, a superior understanding.

 

[Halbhh]

That might be true if we saw Christians paying more than lip service to them...

'Love your neighbor' is a decent aspiration (mostly), but frankly, in the real world, 'Love your enemies' needs very careful interpretation.

E.T.A. Oops! gazumped by Paulos23.

Love your enemies is pretty radical, and Jesus was crucified at the behest of the religious authorities. Pilate tried more than once to let Him go. It was the relgious authorities who wanted Him dead. Why think His ideas are any less revolutionary now? I'd expect to find plenty of relgious leaders not doing as He said, according to His own prediction that only "few" would truly follow. So, finding people saying one thing and doing another -- that's merely par for the course. Go secular even: If everyone that claimed they love or respect the U.S. Constrituion actually respected the Constitution instead of only paying lip service and doing contrary stuff like misconstruing the 2nd admendment (just for starters)....that would practically be another nation instead of our own. So, you merely observe human nature. What's surprising is when people actually do truly unexpected stuff (by normal worldly standards) like forgiving someone who killed someone they love, and such. Why do they do that? You can find out according to their own reasons they say. Such as: Meet the Christians Who Choose to Forgive the People Who Murdered Their Loved Ones This is only one example, and we want to find a group doing "love one another" because Christ said very specifically that's how to know whether people are his disciples.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Love your enemies is pretty radical, and Jesus was crucified at the behest of the religious authorities. Pilate tried more than once to let Him go. It was the relgious authorities who wanted Him dead. Why think His ideas are any less revolutionary now? I'd expect to find plenty of relgious leaders not doing as He said, according to His own prediction that only "few" would truly follow. So, finding people saying one thing and doing another -- that's merely par for the course. Go secular even: If everyone that claimed they love or respect the U.S. Constrituion actually respected the Constitution instead of only paying lip service and doing contrary stuff like misconstruing the 2nd admendment (just for starters)....that would practically be another nation instead of our own. So, you merely observe human nature. What's surprising is when people actually do truly unexpected stuff (by normal worldly standards) like forgiving someone who killed someone they love, and such. Why do they do that? You can find out according to their own reasons they say. Such as: Meet the Christians Who Choose to Forgive the People Who Murdered Their Loved Ones This is only one example, and we want to find a group doing "love one another" because Christ said very specifically that's how to know whether people are his disciples.

Yes, unexpected behaviour is unexpected.

You don't have to be religious to forgive - although it's less common among both religious and non-religious than the desire for revenge or retribution. 'An eye for an eye', and all that... For example, see Religion and Capital Punishment.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

One of the things that made me more interested in Jesus of Nazareth is because His sayings are like an intersection set of all the best ideas in various wisdom traditions, indicating a superior level of insight even over various other wise teachers. Next, He was able to say them in a clearer way. Again, a superior understanding.

Like not beating a slave who makes an innocent mistake quite as hard as one that does it deliberately?

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, unexpected behaviour is unexpected.

You don't have to be religious to forgive - although it's less common among both religious and non-religious than the desire for revenge or retribution. 'An eye for an eye', and all that... For example, see Religion and Capital Punishment.

You are simply agreeing with Christ on that; it's the last sections of Matthew chapter 5, starting at verse 38. Matthew 5 NIV All sorts of people are able to forgive, and love, their friends....

 

[Halbhh]

Like not beating a slave who makes an innocent mistake quite as hard as one that does it deliberately?

You are referring to the parable about how Christians pastors will be held to account on the Day of Judgement for how they have treated their congregations! Specifically while they have to go against their conscience to do such wrongs as mistreating people, it's even worse for them when they also understand better, having learned more. So, pastors longer in the faith that have learned more are held to an even higher standard. So this is a somewhat interesting reference for you to point to -- verses 35-48 in Luke chapter 12 (link just below), but....I suggest to you that reading all the chapter should be interesting, if you are a curious person like me: Luke 12 NIV
I can tell you that a only partial reading of any passage can only allow a very partial (or more likely just wrong) understanding.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I can tell you that a only partial reading of any passage can only allow a very partial (or more likely just wrong) understanding.

Indeed; and, not surprisingly, there are many different understandings and interpretations, even of whole passages.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Also note that the word "Opinion" was written by a fallible man......and therefore can be ignored.

You're finally getting it......

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I generally do not like to state this, but I will: all of the evidence is faked. But, not by the people, by God. People forget - or never got it - that what we actually live in, is God's mind. Scientifically speaking, this is more akin to a virtual reality or dreaming reality. That is science fictionally speaking.

One, why don't people like this answer? It is far beyond most people's capacity to believe right now. Two, the morality can seem, on the surface, sketchy.

God warned of a great lie to be sent in 2 Thessalonias, this is it.

To a strong degree, God has been proving a lot of the more extraordinary things in science, and consistently keeping those matters so these principles can be worked on.

But, this is the same illusion we always face. The illusion of the reality - not "dream" - of "the world".

I parrot QTFT as it is my research area, but it is very close to making this connection. In fact, I don't even think field theory realizes this within the community - as it categorically causes academia to splinter the truth of the situation into a Standard Model, and Fringe.

String theory is not necessarily fringe so much as it is at the fringe of acceptable human understanding. Non-locality is not necessarily fringe so much as it is at the fringe of acceptable human understanding. Since human understanding is a combination of intellectual and cultural influences (with culture greatly playing a part,) it is hard for many people to simply or complexly accept what is not within the majority agreed upon or axiomatic package.

It is a faith matter at heart.

The VR simulation theory is another half truth that will never reach totality because of that boundary between axiom, and illogical (as it were.) It seems like a simulation because it is a projection of what we are. "The Kingdom is within..." and all that jazz. That is why you are foolish if you try to save THIS life, or if you store up treasures here - because this is an ephemeral projection of reality. Life as we know it in this existence is a projection of real life.

What is also interesting is the overwhelming evidence that the laws of nature as we know it are unbounded, or, rather they are not held by the myopic boundaries we set up ourselves - calling it "knowledge and logic." In order to keep the false validity of our earthly paradigms, we must remain ignorant of the things that shatter our understanding of the world projected around us.



Of course, there are many people who actually knew what this entire thing is about - and they are never actually taken seriously... even when they are murdered for what they believe in.

 

[Rivga]

I generally do not like to state this, but I will: all of the evidence is faked. But, not by the people, by God. People forget - or never got it - that what we actually live in, is God's mind. Scientifically speaking, this is more akin to a virtual reality or dreaming reality. That is science fictionally speaking.

God may also be "Faking" his own existence, in what would be an impossible paradox if we were limited by the rules of (oh lets call it) "reality", he is so powerful that even without existing he can make people believe in him.

DreameroftheHearts you've really opened my mind the possibility of a none existing God, though use of miracles tricking people into believing in him. Not only that but making sure that ensure they the are able to see past "reality" and come up with amazing (hmm what to call them.) non senses - or nonsense in the singular.

 

[Jjmcubbin]

Of course it's happening inside your head Harry, but why on Earth should that mean that it is not real?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Interesting....Some of the people in the bible to came to the knowledge of the truth, were considered crazy people as well. some even called blasphemers and crucified for their crazy talk.

Not every person claiming to be the messiah can be sane as well as telling the truth.

Yes this is the case for most....if we can even remember the dream when we awake..... yet their are some who can stay there.....or who enter the dream fully aware that their body is still on the bed.... not something I would look forward to, however...as they seem "real" and give you the feeling of not being able to get back to your "life." It can be a bit unsettling.

You would be surprised the things you can do if you...believe.

No, I never view dreams as fully "real" anymore. More like playing a video game character than actually being myself.

 

[Sorn]

Yes I agree. Your impact is even less if you are rich in this world......(woe to the rich.....eye of a needle etc...) because we get so complacent a since we have everything we want now, and believe there can be no more.....no better. But for the poor, they desire more, and a better life. Then they discover the treasure hidden......

There are plenty of wealthy people who direct their resources to the pursuit of knowledge, new technologies and new ideas.
Elon Musk is one who has been in the news recently but there are many in all sorts of fields.

If I am rich enough not to have to work and choose not to then that means someone who does need to work will have a better job than they otherwise would and ultimately someone down the line will have a job rather then be unemployed.

Further ultimately with automation etc there are going to be many people who will be living largely lives of leisure and so learning how to live like that is important. You don't need the threat of starvation to be bale to make inquiry into the nature of the world and life and to spend time & effort investigating avenues, and that also includes time spent doing largely nothing to see if something / someone contacts you if you think that is an important avenue to pursue.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I generally do not like to state this, but I will: all of the evidence is faked. But, not by the people, by God. People forget - or never got it - that what we actually live in, is God's mind. Scientifically speaking, this is more akin to a virtual reality or dreaming reality. That is science fictionally speaking.

One, why don't people like this answer? It is far beyond most people's capacity to believe right now. Two, the morality can seem, on the surface, sketchy.

God warned of a great lie to be sent in 2 Thessalonias, this is it.

To a strong degree, God has been proving a lot of the more extraordinary things in science, and consistently keeping those matters so these principles can be worked on.

But, this is the same illusion we always face. The illusion of the reality - not "dream" - of "the world".

So Gnosticism then? Pass.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RaymondG]

So Gnosticism then? Pass.

-CryptoLutheran

What's wrong with knowledge?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What's wrong with knowledge?

Nothing.

But the gist of Gnostic cosmology is that the material universe is ultimately illusory, the product of an ignorant, deranged, and evil demigod in which spirits are imprisoned in cages of flesh. The "knowledge" Gnosticism offers is the "knowledge" of the secret and hidden workings behind the world, to peel away the ignorance of the material and discover the realm of pure spirit--and that one's true identity isn't this flesh-and-blood creature, but a spark of the divine pleroma which has its ultimate source in the Monad. And to ultimately free oneself from the ignorance and corruption of materiality, and return to the pleroma.

The idea that the universe is all illusion, at least from the Christian perspective, is absolute heresy. The very opening phrase of the Creed, "We believe in one God, the Father, Almighty Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen." From the outset Christian dogma asserts the inherent goodness and legitimacy of the whole universe: This universe is real, good, and the One we worship is its Author. The material world is objectively real, and objectively good. And, hence, because it is real and truth-bearing, it can be studied and known. When I see a tree, there's actually a tree; the evidence of the material world all around us can be studied, and sought out, and we can come to real answers about the nature of the universe and its reality. Science is, therefore, an inherently noble pursuit, because truth is an inherently noble pursuit, and the truth about the universe is meaningful to be learned in and of itself.

From a Christian perspective the study of the natural world, in and of itself, can be comprehended as a form of worship of the Creator. To deny the reality of the world, or to deny the reality which scientific evidence points to, is a kind of soft heresy; a shrinking away from the world and denial of the good creation of God. That is what I mean by Gnosticism here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RaymondG]

Nothing.

But the gist of Gnostic cosmology is that the material universe is ultimately illusory, the product of an ignorant, deranged, and evil demigod in which spirits are imprisoned in cages of flesh. The "knowledge" Gnosticism offers is the "knowledge" of the secret and hidden workings behind the world, to peel away the ignorance of the material and discover the realm of pure spirit--and that one's true identity isn't this flesh-and-blood creature, but a spark of the divine pleroma which has its ultimate source in the Monad. And to ultimately free oneself from the ignorance and corruption of materiality, and return to the pleroma.

The idea that the universe is all illusion, at least from the Christian perspective, is absolute heresy. The very opening phrase of the Creed, "We believe in one God, the Father, Almighty Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen." From the outset Christian dogma asserts the inherent goodness and legitimacy of the whole universe: This universe is real, good, and the One we worship is its Author. The material world is objectively real, and objectively good. And, hence, because it is real and truth-bearing, it can be studied and known. When I see a tree, there's actually a tree; the evidence of the material world all around us can be studied, and sought out, and we can come to real answers about the nature of the universe and its reality. Science is, therefore, an inherently noble pursuit, because truth is an inherently noble pursuit, and the truth about the universe is meaningful to be learned in and of itself.

From a Christian perspective the study of the natural world, in and of itself, can be comprehended as a form of worship of the Creator. To deny the reality of the world, or to deny the reality which scientific evidence points to, is a kind of soft heresy; a shrinking away from the world and denial of the good creation of God. That is what I mean by Gnosticism here.

-CryptoLutheran

But arent we supposed to die to the flesh..realize that we are not of the world......be born from above....pluck out offending eyes....walk not after the flesh but after the spirit? Have the vale removed from our eyes, as we see only as through a dark glass? Sounds like the illusion stuff you are talking about.. But I see nothing wrong with studying the world and science as well.

 

[Speedwell]

But arent we supposed to die to the flesh..realize that we are not of the world......be born from above....pluck out offending eyes....walk not after the flesh but after the spirit? Have the vale removed from our eyes, as we see only as through a dark glass? Sounds like the illusion stuff you are talking about.. But I see nothing wrong with studying the world and science as well.

Then why do we, as Christians, subscribe to a belief in the resurrection of the body?