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Sometimes the Real Answer is Beyond what Humans can Believe

RaymondG

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It is the brain in the vat argument, except to try to justify belief in God.

But without God or other 'outside' forces interacting with the world, does it mater if we are a brain in the vat or a figment in a dream. The best we can do is draw conclusions with the evidence we have, and the evidence we have doesn't support a God, much less a supernatural cause.
What if you are they one dreaming? And like the dreams you know, once you realize what it is, you can control it....And then nothing is impossible for you? What if the evidence is supposed to lead you to yourself....yet you can't find enough because you are looking for someone else?
 
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Halbhh

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I generally do not like to state this, but I will: all of the evidence is faked. But, not by the people, by God. People forget - or never got it - that what we actually live in, is God's mind. Scientifically speaking, this is more akin to a virtual reality or dreaming reality. That is science fictionally speaking.

One, why don't people like this answer? It is far beyond most people's capacity to believe right now. Two, the morality can seem, on the surface, sketchy.

God warned of a great lie to be sent in 2 Thessalonias, this is it.

To a strong degree, God has been proving a lot of the more extraordinary things in science, and consistently keeping those matters so these principles can be worked on.

But, this is the same illusion we always face. The illusion of the reality - not "dream" - of "the world".

I'd go a bit further compared to the title statement --

Rephrasing: Always the Reality of God and His works are amazing and often Beyond what Humans can Believe

About the idea God made the Earth and the Universe appear old, but made them more recently -- that is plausible and possible.

He can do anything.

But first let's consider this one part (before the other part you pointed to): this young Earth would only fit the text of Genesis chapter 1 just as well -- not any better -- only fits it just as well as the mainstream science 'facts'. Yes, I know this can be about 10 million posts of discussion with people arguing science, etc. but the only pertinent questions are how much time passed during verse 1 and whether there was time between the days, which is not revealed in the text (and for a very good reason! see below), (and for some like me, perhaps also the realization that cloudy days (as the Earth would have continuously for some vast strectches of time we think) would mean the sun, moon and stars are not visible early on from the perspective of the surface of the Earth (as seen in a vision), but only much later (day 4....)).

(Also here we should notice that science facts are not the opinions people usually add on top of the 'facts'; e.g. it's just a measurement 'fact' a moon rock is dated to be 4.5 bn years old for instance by a technique, quantitative, but after that, a (wrong!) opinion can be put on top of the data that claims it disproves something in Genesis chapter 1, but that itself relies on reading the text only one certain way with extra assumptions!).

What 'facts' make the Earth and the Universe appear vastly old?

Here are simple and repeatedly tested and proven facts about how old star light is:

1. The observed finite speed of light (which implies it takes time for star light to get to us from distant stars of course) -- about 300,000 km/second in a vacuum. This has been tested in many ways, over and over, and always confirmed.

2. The distances of nearer stars shown by simple trigonometry -- "parallax" (trigonometry -- as we move sideways, nearer things appear to move sideways also against the background of more distant things; anyone can test this in 1 minute in a back yard) -- showing the distances to stars out to about 7,500 light years distance, the limit of our telescope resolution to detect using parallax trigonometry.

3. Among stars shown with a parallax determined distance are some Cepheid variable stars (which have a relationship between period and absolute luminosity), and very notably: the north star, Polaris.

Because the nearby galaxy Andromeda has Cepheid variable stars in it, we are able to use them to verify it's distance by comparing their period to their apparent brightness! This shows us that the Andromeda Galaxy is shining light to us from about 2.5 million light years distance, and that means we are recieving light in our telescopes from Andromeda that then would have been presumably emitted 2.5 million years ago.


Now, God could have set this all up, created light on it's way to us out in empty space, to make things appear older while making them more recently.

Can't rule it out! He is able. He can do anything.

But....it's not necessarily a given of course! Consider --
He is the creator, meaning He created not just some things, but everything. Meaning He created physics! God's design of nature -- physics. And His design is amazing, elegant, sublime, good.

So, while He could have done it more recently and made it look old, I don't know any reason to think He would have -- the delusions sent to those with hard hearts were also before modern astronomy!

Before.

And still.

No need to make the Earth look older to accomplish that.

Consider further also -- The Earth being 4.55 bn years old fits scripture well, but also is not obvious, and that's good.

It would pre-empt faith for people if God had actually revealed to us the precise age of Earth as being 4.55 bn years old in scripture.

If He had, then when we finally found evidence for that age (4.55bn years old) in the 1950s....then suddenly at that time (in the 1950s onward) it would have simply proved the Bible conclusively without any faith needed! But faith is the thing we are meant to come to, not optional!

Therefore, it would not have fit all the rest of scripture, which is often about our faith, to preempt and preclude faith, and prevent it from being sought -- "Seek and you will find" He said instead of easy proof! And He knew we would eventaully be able to estimate ages of things. So, He foreknew that we would.

Instead of easy proof, we have, just as before 1950, the situation that we need faith. Instead of unambiguous proof no one could deny. At least for the initial coming to Him.

He knew this all this would come in time! He knows what He is doing!
 
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PsychoSarah

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What if you are they one dreaming? And like the dreams you know, once you realize what it is, you can control it....And then nothing is impossible for you? What if the evidence is supposed to lead you to yourself....yet you can't find enough because you are looking for someone else?
Saying that as if there haven't been crazy people that think they are dreaming while wide awake before.

Also, even in the rare instances in which I realize I am dreaming, I don't control the dream, I just wake up.
 
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Hieronymus

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With the amount of brainwashing, lies and suggestion humanity has had to endure in the past century, the real answers are usually beyond what humans can believe or stomach.
I'm afraid it may be too late to turn the tide, despite people trying hard to find the truth and get the truth out.

It's easier to convince people of a lie than to convince them they have been lied to.
 
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Paulos23

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What if you are they one dreaming? And like the dreams you know, once you realize what it is, you can control it....And then nothing is impossible for you? What if the evidence is supposed to lead you to yourself....yet you can't find enough because you are looking for someone else?

If I am the one dreaming, then I am the one dreaming and I will wake up. But if I am dreaming now, then I am being very consistent in my dreaming and it doesn't matter. All I have evidence for is what I experience, and until there is a crack in that experience big enough to convince me that I am dreaming, or I am in a vat or any other extra dimensional existence outside the one I am experiencing, it doesn't impact what I am experiencing and so I can ignore it.
 
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Paulos23

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I'd go a bit further compared to the title statement --

Rephrasing: Always the Reality of God and His works are amazing and most often Beyond what Humans can Believe

About the idea God made the Earth and the Universe appear old, but made them more recently -- that is plausible and possible.

He can do anything.

But first let's consider this one part (before the other part you pointed to): this young Earth would only fit the text of Genesis chapter 1 just as well -- not any better -- only fits it just as well as the mainstream science 'facts'. Yes, I know this can be about 10 million posts of discussion with people arguing science, etc. but the only pertinent questions are how much time passed during verse 1 and whether there was time between the days, which is not revealed in the text (and for a very good reason! see below)

(Also here we should notice that science facts are not the opinions people usually add on top of the 'facts'; e.g. it's just a measurement 'fact' a moon rock is dated to be 4.5 bn years old for instance by a technique, quantitative, but after that, a (wrong!) opinion can be put on top of the data that claims it disproves something in Genesis chapter 1, but that itself relies on reading the text only one certain way with extra assumptions!).

What 'facts' make the Earth and the Universe appear vastly old?

Here are simple and repeatedly tested and proven facts about how old star light is:

1. The observed finite speed of light (which implies it takes time for star light to get to us from distant stars of course) -- about 300,000 km/second in a vacuum. This has been tested in many ways, over and over, and always confirmed.

2. The distances of nearer stars shown by simple trigonometry -- "parallax" (trigonometry -- as we move sideways, nearer things appear to move sideways also against the background of more distant things; anyone can test this in 1 minute in a back yard) -- showing the distances to stars out to about 7,500 light years distance, the limit of our telescope resolution to detect using parallax trigonometry.

3. Among stars shown with a parallax determined distance are some Cepheid variable stars, and very notably: the north star, Polaris.

Because the nearby galaxy Andromeda has Cepheid variable stars in it, we are able to use them to verify it's distance! This shows us that the Andromeda Galaxy is shining light to us from about 2.5 million light years distance, and that means we are recieving light in our telescopes from Andromeda that then would have been presumably emitted 2.5 million years ago.


Now, God could have set this all up, created light on it's way to us out in empty space, to make things appear older while making them more recently.

Can't rule it out! He is able. He can do anything.

But....it's not necessarily a given of course! Consider --
He is the creator, meaning He created not just some things, but everything. Meaning He created physics! God's design of nature -- physics. And His design is amazing, elegant, sublime, good.

So, while He could have done it more recently and made it look old, I don't know any reason to think He would have -- the delusions sent to those with hard hearts were also before modern astronomy!

Before.

And still.

No need to make the Earth look older to accomplish that.

Consider further also -- The Earth being 4.55 bn years old fits scripture well, but also is not obvious, and that's good.

It would pre-empt faith for people if God had actually revealed to us the precise age of Earth as being 4.55 bn years old in scripture.

If He had, then when we finally found evidence for that age (4.55bn years old) in the 1950s....then suddenly at that time (in the 1950s onward) it would have simply proved the Bible conclusively without any faith needed! But faith is the thing we are meant to come to, not optional!

Therefore, it would not have fit all the rest of scripture, which is often about our faith, to preempt and preclude faith, and undo it, with such easily provable facts that could be discovered later in time!

Instead, we have, just as before 1950, the situation that we need faith.

He knew this all this would come in time! He knows what He is doing!

Last Thursdayism. Can ignore it the same way I ignore I am dreaming.
 
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Hieronymus

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Since the bible was written by fallible men, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Fallible men who apparently came out of stupidity by God's inspiration and / or revelations.
 
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RaymondG

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Saying that as if there haven't been crazy people that think they are dreaming while wide awake before.

Interesting....Some of the people in the bible to came to the knowledge of the truth, were considered crazy people as well. some even called blasphemers and crucified for their crazy talk.

Also, even in the rare instances in which I realize I am dreaming, I don't control the dream, I just wake up.

Yes this is the case for most....if we can even remember the dream when we awake..... yet their are some who can stay there.....or who enter the dream fully aware that their body is still on the bed.... not something I would look forward to, however...as they seem "real" and give you the feeling of not being able to get back to your "life." It can be a bit unsettling.

You would be surprised the things you can do if you...believe.
 
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RaymondG

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If I am the one dreaming, then I am the one dreaming and I will wake up. But if I am dreaming now, then I am being very consistent in my dreaming and it doesn't matter. All I have evidence for is what I experience, and until there is a crack in that experience big enough to convince me that I am dreaming, or I am in a vat or any other extra dimensional existence outside the one I am experiencing, it doesn't impact what I am experiencing and so I can ignore it.
Yes I agree. Your impact is even less if you are rich in this world......(woe to the rich.....eye of a needle etc...) because we get so complacent a since we have everything we want now, and believe there can be no more.....no better. But for the poor, they desire more, and a better life. Then they discover the treasure hidden......

But I understand the lack of an urge to seek more when we are fine right now......but for those willing...Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
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RaymondG

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I guess they would say that; but how can we be sure it's right, if they're fallible men? ;)
And if they are fallible, we are as well.....If we cant trust their opinions then we, likewise, cant trust our own opinion that 'they are fallible'. If fallible cant realize and write truth, how can fallible recognize the fallible? But what do I know.......Im fallible.
 
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Paulos23

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Yes I agree. Your impact is even less if you are rich in this world......(woe to the rich.....eye of a needle etc...) because we get so complacent a since we have everything we want now, and believe there can be no more.....no better. But for the poor, they desire more, and a better life. Then they discover the treasure hidden......

But I understand the lack of an urge to seek more when we are fine right now......but for those willing...Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
That is not it. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. People are always looking for more for all sorts of reasons. But for all my looking, I found nothing.

It is better to live your life as it is placed before you, and better that as you can, rather than looking for supernatural explanation or help out of your life.

Hunting for ferries in the garden will not grow your strawberries.
 
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Halbhh

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That is not it. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. People are always looking for more for all sorts of reasons. But for all my looking, I found nothing.

It is better to live your life as it is placed before you, and better that as you can, rather than looking for supernatural explanation or help out of your life.

Hunting for ferries in the garden will not grow your strawberries.

I think the reason for an atheist to become interested in Christianity is the commandments like this one that one finds if they read in the accounts called the gospels about the words and deeds of Christ:

"...love your neighbor as yourself..."

"...love your enemies..."

Stuff that is very interesting to anyone thinking about history and how it could be that humans could ever have true peace instead of only wars, gradually more and more dangerous, intersperced with various longer and shorter armistices.

A reason to become curious to learn more.
 
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RaymondG

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That is not it. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. People are always looking for more for all sorts of reasons. But for all my looking, I found nothing.
It matters a little. a poor child is more likely to work hard and salve to increase there living situation than the child of the rich who may never need to work if they dont want to.....and course there are exceptions.

What if you were looking in the wrong place....or for something specific? what if He is trying to find YOU here and give you everything, while you were to busy looking there to find SOMEthing?

Maybe it was time for you to stop looking so that you can be found....

At least you realize you havent found anything.......there are many to stop seeking because they feel they have something already....but do not.....

It is better to live your life as it is placed before you, and better that as you can, rather than looking for supernatural explanation or help out of your life.
Yes one day at a time....not looking for tomorrow because it will never come....now is the time we should think about.

Hunting for ferries in the garden will not grow your strawberries.
Yes, you must also plant the seed....give water....and then wait.........no matter how much you seek for the strawberry, it will not appear before it is supposed to appear.
 
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Paulos23

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I think the reason for an atheist to become interested in Christianity is the commandments like this one that one finds if they read in the accounts called the gospels about the words and deeds of Christ:

"...love your neighbor as yourself..."

"...love your enemies..."

Stuff that is very interesting to anyone thinking about history and how it could be that humans could ever have true peace instead of only wars, gradually more and more dangerous, intersperced with various longer and shorter armistices.

A reason to become curious to learn more.

Funny it is those words not being followed by Christians that was one of the things that lead me away.

And those ideas have been around longer then the Bible and Christianity is not the sole holder of those ideas, as shown by the actions of some Christians.

Now I am not saying that I don't want to know if there is a god out there. But nothing I have found or seen gives me the idea that there is a personal god.
 
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bhsmte

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I generally do not like to state this, but I will: all of the evidence is faked. But, not by the people, by God. People forget - or never got it - that what we actually live in, is God's mind. Scientifically speaking, this is more akin to a virtual reality or dreaming reality. That is science fictionally speaking.

One, why don't people like this answer? It is far beyond most people's capacity to believe right now. Two, the morality can seem, on the surface, sketchy.

God warned of a great lie to be sent in 2 Thessalonias, this is it.

To a strong degree, God has been proving a lot of the more extraordinary things in science, and consistently keeping those matters so these principles can be worked on.

But, this is the same illusion we always face. The illusion of the reality - not "dream" - of "the world".

Opinion. Which, you are welcome to.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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And if they are fallible, we are as well.....If we cant trust their opinions then we, likewise, cant trust our own opinion that 'they are fallible'. If fallible cant realize and write truth, how can fallible recognize the fallible? But what do I know.......Im fallible.
Are you sure about that?
 
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