Something About Mary

[Albion]

Albion isn't a member of the Anglican Communion but the Reformed Episcopal Church, which is a schism.

Anglicans do recite the Marian rosary and we have our own rosary as well. The Reformed Episcopal Church doesn't typically have a high view on such practice whereas in Anglicanism, it is fine.

Since you got almost everything wrong in that reply that it is possible to get wrong, maybe you should let me speak for myself hereafter.

 

[Defensor Christi]

That doesn't relate to the issue we are discussing, however. But since you have--logically enough--turned to Scripture for resolution of the matter, note that Jesus never prayed to angels or the dead, that when he was asked by his disciples how to pray he taught them the "Our Father...." with no mention of deceased intermediaries, and there is in fact not a single instance in the New Testament of any mortal praying to the dead with Jesus's approval OR of any other reference to the practice being God-pleasing.

When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.” (Mark 15:35)

Why would they think that?

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. (Matt 17:1-3)

If these guys are just dead spirits...what the heck are they doing here?

 

[seeingeyes]

That doesn't relate to the issue we are discussing, however. But since you have--logically enough--turned to Scripture for resolution of the matter, note that Jesus never prayed to angels or the dead, that when he was asked by his disciples how to pray he taught them the "Our Father...." with no mention of deceased intermediaries, and there is in fact not a single instance in the New Testament of any mortal praying to the dead with Jesus's approval OR of any other reference to the practice being God-pleasing.

Here's the logic I was looking at:

A. One saint should ask another saint to pray for him.

B. All saints are still alive. (Hence the verse I posted.)

Therefore, a saint should ask others saints to pray for them whether they are currently breathing or not.

(Were you questioning A or B?)

 

[Cappadocious]

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They're spirits.

Neo-platonic sophistry.

Gospel: Not one dead remains in a tomb.

Neoplatonic religion (gnostics/arcontics/paulicians/manicheans/bogomils/baha'i): Yes, but what that really means is...

 

[Albion]

When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.” (Mark 15:35)

Why would they think that?

They thought a lot of other things that were equally incorrect, if you noticed.

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. (Matt 17:1-3)

Nope. No praying involved in that.

My point stands.

 

[Albion]

Neo-platonic sophistry.

Gospel: Not one dead remains in a tomb.

Not one human who has died remains in a tomb, you say? Very interesting.

 

[Albion]

Here's the logic I was looking at:

A. One saint should ask another saint to pray for him.

B. All saints are still alive. (Hence the verse I posted.)

Therefore, a saint should ask others saints to pray for them whether they are currently breathing or not.

(Were you questioning A or B?)

Here are my points of emphasis:

A. The Scripture is what governs this issue.

B. Nowhere in it does Jesus pray to spirits, advocate doing so, or is there any other place in the New Testament that recommends the practice.

C. It is so obvious that one's neighbor is not the equivalent of the soul of one who has died and gone to the afterlife that we cannot seriously think that the admonition to us mortals to pray for each other applies to necromancy, spiritism, or any appeals to the (physically) dead.

D. We have reason to believe that angels and spirits pray FOR us, but that is not the same as praying TO them.

 

[Defensor Christi]

They thought a lot of other things that were equally incorrect, if you noticed.

But the fact remains that it was a common practice...one that Jesus did NOT rebuke...btw.

Nope. No praying involved in that.

My point stands.

My point stands that those who have entered into the presence of the living God are aware and concerned for those of us who reamain on this mortal plane...

 

[Defensor Christi]

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D. We have reason to believe that angels and spirits pray FOR us, but that is not the same as praying TO them.

How do they know WHAT to pray for? You are 3/4's of the way there...

 

[Albion]

But the fact remains that it was a common practice...one that Jesus did NOT rebuke...btw.

My comment was that the disciples were often wrong. I assume you acknowledge that. Now, if I turn to the specific passage you offered us...it doesn't in any way deal with the matter under consideration--praying to the dead. Therefore, there's nothing much more to say about it.

those who have entered into the presence of the living God are aware and concerned for those of us who reamain on this mortal plane...

Bully for you. When you find something, anything, in the New Testament that either recommends praying to the dead for their intercessions or shows us an example of anyone doing it, get back to me.

 

[steve_bakr]

Isn't that one sufficient to disprove the notion that they are exactly the same as us, leading to the theory that praying to them is no different from asking a neighbor to pray for us?

They are souls of human beings who have been received by Christ and are therefore "glorified." So, there is a certain bond but certainly a difference, as you say.

I was away for awhile. I see that this thread--not you--is straying from the OP and is heating up a bit. The subject of Mary is a very sensitive one between Catholics and Protestants. Along with that is of course the Communion of Saints.

But if I'm correct, Catholics are not REQUIRED to pray to Mary and the Saints. I normally don't pray to Saints, but I will pray the Rosary and send up an occasional Hail Mary.

My confirmation name is not an "official" saint--I took it after Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. But my Deacon seemed to imply that it had to be St. Lawrence, the one who was roasted and said, "I'm done on this side. Turn me over."

 

[Defensor Christi]

Bully for you. When you find something, anything, in the New Testament that either recommends praying to the dead for their intercessions or shows us an example of anyone doing it, get back to me.

When you find anything in the NT stating that we are EVER dead in Christ...get back to me

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Cappadocious
Neo-platonic sophistry.

Gospel: Not one dead remains in a tomb.

Not one human who has died remains in a tomb, you say? Very interesting.

Anyone here have an idea where the tomb of Mary is?




.

 

[Defensor Christi]

But if I'm correct, Catholics are not REQUIRED to pray to Mary and the Saints.

You are correct sir...

 

[Defensor Christi]

Anyone here have an idea where the tomb of Mary is?




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She doesnt have one...remember?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus


Anyone here have an idea where the tomb of Mary is?

She doesnt have one...remember?

How do you know?



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[Albion]

Anyone here have an idea where the tomb of Mary is?




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Claims have been made for western Britain, Syria, and France, as I recall. There probably are others.

 

[Defensor Christi]

How do you know?

Assumption of Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I am wrong...where is it?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Assumption of Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I am wrong...where is it?

Typical


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[Defensor Christi]

Typical


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Sorry?