Something About Mary

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Root of Jesse

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That's a good question. And I thank you for asking it. Our prayers to the Saints ask that they pray for us as we're aware that we do not always pray for what we really need but rather and often what we desire. I also ask just about every praying believer to pray for me as led as well.
So I'll ask a question as well to make a point: Why would you ask anyone to pray for you when you could pray for yourself? The answer for both your question and mine is the same answer. There is strength in numbers agreeing in prayer.
Thanks, Randy! I couldn't have said it better.
 
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Thekla

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"Going beyond what is theologically wrong, or right; what is scriptural, or not; and going beyond what is or isn't traditonal, for those who practice prayers to the saints, what does this add to the faith, that praying to Jesus does not already give to those who pray?
Why go to the secretary, when the boss has already made himself directly to your petitions? Is it because God likes the secretary more than you?



That's the Number One question to be asked, Solomon, and I doubt that we'll get much of an answer other than "they pray for us, we ask them, God likes them, they still are alive" generalizations in return.

Because the body of Christ is the body of Christ, regardless of our perception of "location" (sojourning or sojourn completed).

We worship God, we ask God in prayer, we ask others to pray with and for us. Asking another Christian for their prayers (regardless of location) is the belief in the body of Christ, as what is believed is what is done. What is done expresses belief; asking others for their prayers is thus the action expressing the belief in what is expressed and promised in Scripture (asking others for prayer, the body of Christ, that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ, nothing can separate us from the love of God, knowing in and through the action of God, what is demonstrated in Revelation, etc.).
 
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Albion

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Because the body of Christ is the body of Christ, regardless of our perception of "location" (sojourning or sojourn completed).

We worship God, we ask God in prayer, we ask others to pray with and for us. Asking another Christian for their prayers (regardless of location) is the belief in the body of Christ, as what is believed is what is done. What is done expresses belief; asking others for their prayers is thus the action expressing the belief in what is expressed and promised in Scripture (asking others for prayer, the body of Christ, that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ, nothing can separate us from the love of God, knowing in and through the action of God, what is demonstrated in Revelation, etc.).

Warm and fuzzy, but not a real answer to the question.
 
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Thekla

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Warm and fuzzy, but not a real answer to the question.

I don't think of belief as action as "warm and fuzzy", but to each his own.

So "why go to the secretary when you can go to the boss" ?

Asking others to pray for us is demonstrated in Scripture.
"Secretaries" giving the prayers to the "boss" is demonstrated in Scripture.

And belief/trust is not an idea/intellectual assent, but an action; what you do is what you believe.

I believe what is demonstrated and taught in Scripture, thus I have as action what I believe.
 
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Albion

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I don't think of belief as action as "warm and fuzzy", but to each his own.

So "why go to the secretary when you can go to the boss" ?

Asking others to pray for us is demonstrated in Scripture.

That's neighbors, not spirits.

"Secretaries" giving the prayers to the "boss" is demonstrated in Scripture.
But still doesn't address the question.

And belief/trust is not an idea/intellectual assent, but an action; what you do is what you believe.

I believe what is demonstrated and taught in Scripture, thus I have as action what I believe.
I see, but here's the point again. Jesus has promised that Our Father waits for us to ask him anything, but weak faith and human customs have led people to think that it's not so. At the same time, the notion has grown up that the saints have "more pull" with God than we. Well, that's how it works in business or other pursuits of daily life, but it's not a testimonial to believing what Jesus instructed us.
 
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Thekla

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That's neighbors, not spirits.
That's the body of Christ, which includes all in Him, "neighbors and spirits".


But still doesn't address the question.


I see, but here's the point again. Jesus has promised that Our Father waits for us to ask him anything, but weak faith and human customs have led people to think that it's not so. At the same time, the notion has grown up that the saints have "more pull" with God than we. Well, that's how it works in business or other pursuits of daily life, but it's not a testimonial to believing what Jesus instructed us.

You may choose to see it that way.

I instead will live my faith in Christ, and what is demonstrated and taught in Scripture, to the best of my ability by His love and grace.
 
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A New Day

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I cannot deny the bible: For behold henceforth all generations will call me blessed, Who can say that? Did Mary become arrogant after that she was humble to the will of the Lord? I recognize that when she said that she was filled with the holy spirit too, and perhaps with the holy spirit of the prophecy.

I am no one to judge her in anything whatever small it may be when God used/chose her and he blessed her, when did i become greater than Mary? or am I equal to Jesus to be able to speak anything small about the people that God chose?

So let us show that we are a little bit like Mary that we bear Jesus in our hearts the same as she bear him in her womb and to say with her: I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.

When I am not sure about something I give respect and I prefer to think like Gamaliel.

Acts 5:33 But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

What I know is that there are countless of people that came to know Jesus through Mary and they were changed, I do not know why and I do not know how but I cannot deny those people.
 
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Albion

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That's the body of Christ, which includes all in Him, "neighbors and spirits".

We do call that the body of Christ all right, but that doesn't make mortals and spirits identical...and it was the mortals we were told to ask to pray for us, not those who have passed on to where we don't know and cannot hear our prayers anyway.

You may choose to see it that way.
Or, to put it another way, I may choose to be guided by the Word of God in this matter.

I instead will live my faith in Christ, and what is demonstrated and taught in Scripture
Excellent decision, especially since you were just lecturing me not to do exactly that. :doh:
 
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Fireinfolding

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Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Why would Jesus specify two agreeing on "the same plane of things", like to say, if two of you agree "on earth?"

I know I couldnt tell if someone (not on earth) who I just cant see or hear (even in order to know) that they actually "agreed with me".

Well, for instance (there) Jesus is instructing that if just two of them agree (more specifically here) "on earth" on a thing. That if they (two) did so (here on earth) asking the Father (which is in heaven) for whichever thing, it will be done for them (on earth) of Him (in heaven).
 
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sunlover1

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Well that would be our essential disagreement then...
That those who have passed away are omniscient?

I am sure it has been covered in this thread, scripturally, there is evidence that those who are with God are well aware of the affairs that occur on earth...I dont think we go to Heaven, sit on clouds and play harps...totally forgetting those whom we love here on earth.
Well but are we basing our beliefs on what we think or don't think?
I can do that all day long. Might be fun to make up my own little
fantasy world ;)

The Catholic perspective (as basic as it gets) is this...

1) We pray (intercede/mediate) for each other
2) We never are dead in the body of Christ
3) We are aware of the happenings here on earth
4) Those souls in heaven's intercession is much more powerful than ours as they are without sin and have direct access to the Lord (beatific vision)
5) We ask them to intercede on our behalf...just as I would ask you to intercede for me....
What makes you believe that you can communicate with spiritual beings?
 
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Thekla

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That those who have passed away are omniscient?

God is omniscient; those in Him can know what He wills them to know. The spiritual ears hear by God.

After all, Paul was given to hear the man from Macedonia praying to him: And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; "There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." Acts 16:9
 
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Thekla

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We do call that the body of Christ all right, but that doesn't make mortals and spirits identical...and it was the mortals we were told to ask to pray for us, not those who have passed on to where we don't know and cannot hear our prayers anyway.
"Mortals" are sojourning, what you call "spirits" have finished their earthly sojourn; both are in Christ.

Proximity, nor even the physical ears, are needed to hear in the Holy Spirit.


Or, to put it another way, I may choose to be guided by the Word of God in this matter.

Matter is not "stronger" than God; the Scriptures teach us this.

And the Scriptures teach :
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him ..." Eph 1:10
"Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:9
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:8
"But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12: 22-24

If we are in Christ, we are not separated from any in Him and of Him.


Excellent decision, especially since you were just lecturing me not to do exactly that. :doh:

You may choose to see it that way.

The Jesus Christ I worship has conquered death; all in Him have eternal life now.
It's in the present tense:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life (zoe), and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

Do not mistake zoe for bios (span of physical life); in Christ we have the life eternal which is the spiritual life. To be in the body of Christ is to be united with all those in His body - spiritually.
 
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Fireinfolding

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God is omniscient; those in Him can know what He wills them to know. The spiritual ears hear by God.

After all, Paul was given to hear the man from Macedonia praying to him: And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; "There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." Acts 16:9

Given it does say

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Paul saw a vision in accord with the same

Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Seems more like the way the Lord communicated where they should go. Thats another thing I noticed when a vision was given it had purpose for the gospel to be preached, for example the same is seen in Peter (to the Gentiles) and he and Cornelius came together (opening that door). The same is true of Paul and Ananias, after his initial vision of the Lord. He speaks of his being obedient to the vision (per his instructions).

Went down much the same with Ananias though, hear what the Lord says to him

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

And told Ananias this...

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Means Paul would be expecting him (in accordance to the vision the Lord enabled him to have) because it could also be assuredly gathered likewise that the Lord was sending Ananias to him. So the Lord infoms Ananias what Paul had been given to see by the Lord in respects to himself. Perhaps even to let him understand that he was somewhat prepared (by Christ) for his coming. Even his own obedience to what the Lord was directing Ananias to do.
 
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Thekla

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Given it does say

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Paul saw a vision in accord with the same

Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Seems more like the way the Lord communicated where they should go. Thats another thing I noticed when a vision was given it had purpose for the gospel to be preached, for example the same is seen in Peter (to the Gentiles) and he and Cornelius came together (opening that door). The same is true of Paul and Ananias, after his initial vision of the Lord. He speaks of his being obedient to the vision (per his instructions).

All that God does and reveals to us is both toward the preaching of the Gospel, but also the confirmation and lived reality of the Gospel. For the Gospel preached and embraced becomes the promises lived and experienced.

Went down much the same with Ananias though, hear what the Lord says to him

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

And told Ananias this...

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Means Paul would be expecting him (in accordance to the vision the Lord enabled him to have) because it could also be assuredly gathered likewise that the Lord was sending Ananias to him. So the Lord infoms Ananias what Paul had been given to see by the Lord in respects to himself. Perhaps even to let him understand that he was somewhat prepared (by Christ) for his coming. Even his own obedience to what the Lord was directing Ananias to do.

Certainly God does not cease to speak to us, and to reveal Himself to us - and this always confirms the Gospel. And this, towards our salvation ... :thumbsup:
 
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Fireinfolding

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All that God does and reveals to us is both toward the preaching of the Gospel, but also the confirmation and lived reality of the Gospel. For the Gospel preached and embraced becomes the promises lived and experienced.



Certainly God does not cease to speak to us, and to reveal Himself to us - and this always confirms the Gospel. And this, towards our salvation ... :thumbsup:


You know, another thing, In the whole your sons and daughters shall prophesy (or ye may ALL prophesy) and the split off between your young men seeing visions and your old men dreaming dreams, ever notice it followed that same course? Like both sons and daughters would (and did prophesy) but it was the men shown having the visions and we can see Joseph (beforehand) having dreams. Him more formerly, in the sense of protecting the seed (Christ) and Peter and Paul (with the other two men) for the furtherance of the gospel. Outside of one bad dream (Pilates wife had, which I certainly wouldnt count) I dont see those manifested in women but in men according to how the Spirit appears to pour out (and divide each) as is stated.

If otherwise I sure dont know save someone who might say they did, but in the gospels it sure plays out the same tune between them.
 
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Thekla

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You know, another thing, In the whole your sons and daughters shall prophesy (or ye may ALL prophesy) and the split off between your young men seeing visions and your old men dreaming dreams, ever notice it followed that same course? Like both sons and daughters would (and did prophesy) but it was the men shown having the visions and we can see Joseph (beforehand) having dreams. Him more formerly, in the sense of protecting the seed (Christ) and Peter and Paul (with the other two men) for the furtherance of the gospel. Outside of one bad dream (Pilates wife had, which I certainly wouldnt count) I dont see those manifested in women but in men according to how the Spirit appears to pour out (and divide each) as is stated.

If otherwise I sure dont know save someone who might say they did, but in the gospels it sure plays out the same tune between them.

That's interesting ... something to ponder and study, for sure !

(except likely not actively tonight :))

g'night, Sister

God with us +
 
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Albion

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"Mortals" are sojourning, what you call "spirits" have finished their earthly sojourn; both are in Christ.
Agreed. And the two are in quite different parts of the body of Christ, that's all.

Matter is not "stronger" than God; the Scriptures teach us this.
Interesting, even though no one said that matter is stronger than God.
:confused:

The Jesus Christ I worship has conquered death; all in Him have eternal life now.
....and some people say that Orthodox Christians don't believe in OSAS. :D
 
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SolomonVII

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That's a good question. And I thank you for asking it. Our prayers to the Saints ask that they pray for us as we're aware that we do not always pray for what we really need but rather and often what we desire. I also ask just about every praying believer to pray for me as led as well.
So I'll ask a question as well to make a point: Why would you ask anyone to pray for you when you could pray for yourself? The answer for both your question and mine is the same answer. There is strength in numbers agreeing in prayer.
horton.jpg


Who knew that Horton Hears a Who ,was at its heart, the Orthodox way of praying?
Horton Hears a Who (ebook) - YouTube
 
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sunlover1

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God is omniscient; those in Him can know what He wills them to know. The spiritual ears hear by God.
So you're suggesting that you pray, God hears and tells a "saint" and then that "saint" prays to Him for you?
 
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