Something About Mary

[Thekla]

I wouldnt consider the cellphone an art, but a means of communication. Like writing letters, far faster then pencils, paper and a carrier besides the many days to get your communications across. Whereas a dried up slab of cement just sorta sits there. Whether of water and dirt fashioned with no other purpose then eyecandy really.

Not art, I agree.

But it is a product of human artistry (which in ancient times meant "craft" or the product of craftsmanship, ie not farming, roughly).

 

[Fireinfolding]

That is interesting how he will make those who are liars and of Satan bow at your feet

 

[Fireinfolding]

Not art, I agree.

But it is a product of human artistry (which in ancient times meant "craft" or the product of craftsmanship, ie not farming, roughly).

Paul was a tentmaker, producing things that have productive value for humanity is not condemned. People make clothes too right? Houses to live in, plant vineyards, men make useful things of wood like bows (for hunting).

A cell phone and an image arent really compareable. One just takes up space, sits there and does nothing but look pretty, pertaining more to the desire of the eyes, it has no ears save whats sculpted onto it but cannot hear. Images of gold, silver wood and stone, can neither can see, nor hear, nor walk. A cellphone on the otherhand can be a means of hearing another, an device to enable talking to another and serves useful purposes between both loved ones and ones work.

 

[Rev Randy]

I have prayed with a pepsi in my hand, when there wasnt a place to put it down. But then again, I have prayed with a steeringwheel in my left hand and an ice tea in my other because my cupholders are broken in my car too.

Thankfully you didn't have a third thing to hold.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Folks don't worship their stomach as a god yet He says it IS their god.

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach,
and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Ah so now you can judge what is worship and what isn't?
I don't know, I just don't judge.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Thankfully you didn't have a third thing to hold.

Yeah really, heck when theres a bee in the car things do get pretty wet and I have some close calls with trees sometimes

I try to keep my windows up in the summer so that doesnt happen lol

 

[Thekla]

Paul was a tentmaker, producing things that have productive value for humanity is not condemned. People make clothes too right? Houses to live in, plant vineyards, men make useful things of wood like bows (for hunting).

A cell phone and an image arent really compareable. One just takes up space, sits there and does nothing but look pretty, pertaining more to the desire of the eyes, it has no ears save whats sculpted onto it but cannot hear. Images of gold, silver wood and stone, can neither can see, nor hear, nor walk. A cellphone on the otherhand can be a means of hearing another, an device to enable talking to another and serves useful purposes between both loved ones and ones work.

I don't disagree - except just wanted to mention the ancient idea of artistry (the idea of high "Art" is a modern invention).

But I guess my central point is that we can fall into - and sometimes do - worship anything of our own creation/artistry.

As the Psalmist says, " ... some trust in horses and some in chariots ..."; that didn't work out too well ! (The horse is created by God, the chariot by human artistry.)

Better to "remember the name of the Lord, our God." (Psalm 20)

 

[Root of Jesse]

You could appeal to Mary before a Ronald McDonald statute then if your not. I mean it would become fairly unimportant to do so (as far as the practice goes) and far more easier to walk away from I would think.

Yes, you could.

I would also admit that if I saw someone down on their knees before a Ronald McDonald (statue) or whichever thing in cement (there be) and praying (regularly) toward these graven pieces... I couldnt help but think the cement forms (along with the ritualistic practice) had some kind of power (to them).

I wouldn't make a judgement...

Well, at least in their own minds. And more especially so through observation (of such regular practices).

Like if you observe Buddhists. And these too will often set aside a room or a part of a room as a shrine. There will commonly be a statue of Buddha, candles, and an incense burner. It's also common for them to use prayer beads to mark the number of repetitions of a mantra, even a prayer wheel is utilized by some of them too, so its not such an uncommon practice in various world religions. Buddhists also would protest that they (themselves) are not idol worshippers. Because to them idolatry generally means erecting images of unknown gods and goddesses in various shapes and sizes and to pray directly to these images.

I would say "Who is a Buddhist's God"? Honestly, Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. They pray to Buddha.

They say similarly, that "the worshipping" at the Buddha image is just to revere the image of the Buddha as a gesture to the one they deem the greatest, wisest, most benevolent, compassionate and holy man who has ever lived in this world. So the worship of their Buddha is really just paying homage, veneration and devotion to Him and what He represents, but not to the stone or metal figure either. Responses ofcourse varry greatly (well, on catholic forums) concerning Buddhists though, so hard to tell anything (on them) because you can read both condemnation and approval (so depends). I should ask, where do I find the official catholic stance on this, could you direct me on this?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official all-in-one document containing the beliefs and practices of Catholicism. It is a positve affirmation of Catholicism,and does not speak much of other faiths.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ah so now you can judge what is worship and what isn't?
I don't know, I just don't judge.

I think she is referring to this one

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things)

That does always remind me of "upon thy belly" thou shalt go for some reason

 

[Root of Jesse]

Or you can just ask God the Father and allow the Holy Spirit to intercede for you, in Jesus' name.

Yes, you could. There's nothing that says you must pray to Mary, or any Saint. Most of us do. My wife prays to St. Peregrine, the patron saint of cancer patients. Why is he this?

St. Peregrine was born in 1260 at Forlì, Italy to an affluent family. He lived a comfortable life as a youth, and politically opposed the papacy. After he experienced the forgiveness of St. Philip Benizi, he changed his life and joined the Servite order. He was ordained a priest, and later returned to his home to establish a Servite community. There he was widely known for his preaching, penances, and counsel in the confessional. He was cured of cancer, after he received a vision of Christ on the cross reaching out His hand to touch his impaired limb. He died in 1345 and was canonized in 1726. He is the patron of cancer patients.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The wises thing I know is to go to the Father:

And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will he hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the request that we have asked of Him.
1 John 5:14-15
​

I know that we have Scripture telling us to pray for each other and in each context it is dealing with the physical brothers and sisters, asking to pray for one another. Often cited is 1 Timothy 2:1 but people forget about 2-7 which puts everything on a physical plane. We pray for each other, I get that. But to say that we can ask those Christians who are asleep in Christ to pray for us thinking that they can hear us is not fair to them. We know for sure that God hears us,we know that Jesus taught us to pray to God the Father, we know that the Spirit intercedes and Jesus Mediates, we know that I can go to my brother and sister in Christ to pray for me, and I can pray for them I do not, however, know anything about those asleep in Christ.

You can certainly pray to God, but sometimes it helps to envision someone who went through a similar circumstance. The Saints are those humans who lived human lives in the fellowship of God, and now live with Him. The Saints are, by definition, not asleep in Christ, as Revelation shows us...

 

[sunlover1]

Well, for one, graven image is a wrong translation. The word, both in the Hebrew and in the Greek Septuagint is IDOL. There is nothing in the language to say anything about engraved images.

So you're saying that they are one in the same.
graven image=idol

i do not think that sounds biblical

if they were the same, how could God have ordered the bronze serpent to be made or the charibum ontop of the ark
or how could He have been pleased with the images in the temple Solomon made?

So you disagree with sculley?
Or with the Bible translators?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I am never the person to encourage a belief that is not in Scripture and I don't want to walk away for this conversation with the idea that we are in agreement that "you keep doing what works for you and I'll do likewise". I am one of those crazy people who, if wrong in my thinking about anything of God, I want to be corrected so that I don't twist Scripture and say what I want it to say. My desire is to know His truth even if I believed something for so long, if i am wrong per Scriptue, I will change my thinking. But I'm going to step away from this conversation with a full assurance that I don't agree with your reasoning, if only because I don't think this conversation is benefitting either of us.

Revelation 5:8 plainly states that the saints in heaven hear our prayers and intercede for us.

Your praying to God is not wrong. We do, too. We don't pray "Our Mary..." We pray "Our Father" at every Mass and in every Rosary. We don't exclude God in our prayer, we include Mary and the Saints.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I wouldn't make a judgement...

But some judgments are hard to avoid, for example, the Ronald Mcdonald statue example. If we would see such a thing as this...

Notice they are all before a Ronald McDonald statue, they are all kneeling, and all have fries in their hands, to me I would judge (by this picture) they were mocking kneeling before images.

I would feel very correct in that judgment. Not one against their soul, but in judgment of my opinion. To believe them serious (and condemn their souls) would seem to be a little harsh (on my end). I dont honestly think these men believe the Ronald McDonald image has any power (whatsoever) if they did believe this they would not be doing this irreverantly as they are doing.

So there would be my difference of opinion between believing these men believe theres any power in that statue and the other, its their mannerisms toward that image that informs me nothing sacred is really going on here. They are making fun of the idea, not putting off any kind of seriousness (that I can tell) toward doing what they are doing.

So my opinion (which is also my judgment) would conclude here these are making fun in their role playing. Whether God judges my judgment as correct (in my estimation) or not, I dont know, but I highly doubt many would believe my judgment is incorrect. However, if there was a difference in opinion I certainly wont argue with someone taking these guys more seriously then I do.

I would say "Who is a Buddhist's God"? Honestly, Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. They pray to Buddha.

A man and not a God, or a creature and not the Creator, yes. Images of men. I did read somewhere that he also was against images, given the man stripped naked and took off to practice the less is more thing, I definately dont pick up (from him) that he would be crazy about that. I was reading into this last night.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official all-in-one document containing the beliefs and practices of Catholicism. It is a positve affirmation of Catholicism,and does not speak much of other faiths.

Wasnt sure if they had anything, went to a catholic site a few times on this and they are very back and forth on having a Buddha figure and the philosphy of Buddha. But thanks for that, was curious if there was anything more official then the extreme takes between catholics on this issue.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well I knew it wouldn't be that simple.




I don't judge the heart, nor do I believe that individuals are committing idolartry willingly. Evil is evil, and good is good. The bible says woah unto those who switch it up and say good is evil and evil is good. Now I'm not saying that this is what you personally are doing. What I am saying is that every practice we hold should be evaluated to see if it is actually pleasing to God.

I guess my question really is at what point did bowing down before images become acceptable and no longer looked at as wrong?

I believe idolatry is a conscious decision to put your own pleasure before worshipping God. It's skipping worship to go to a football game, or going on vacation and not going to worship God. It's choosing work over worship (note: not when working is a necessity...CHOOSING work over God...If you have to work on Sunday and to do otherwise means losing your job, that's different.). It's choosing to stay in bed because you were out late the night before, and not worshipping God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

God didn't say that we have to be sinless in order to pray.

As for all the other points you've made, I don't know many Scriptures that explain to us the everyday life of those who are asleep in Christ so I'm not so sure if I understand the latter things you write.

I don't think that's the point. St. Paul exhorts us to pray constantly. I don't believe he meant each one of us to always pray. I believe, as a body, we should always be engaged in prayer.

As an example, a group of wind musicians can keep a solid note going for a very long time, when they stagger their breaths, and take breaks to eat and do other human functions. A single musician could not do the same thing.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Gotta go food shopping catch ya's later

 

[Root of Jesse]

Graven images or likenesses... thou shalt not bow down nor serve them. That's what the text says. Funny enough the command doesn't say a thing about worship. Go figure.



It's not about a "sinister mind", but doing what the text says, avoiding the apperance of evil. Why? Because our actions speak louder than our words.

And it's God to care about what God knows. It's also good to do what He asks, and He asks us to avoid the apperance of evil.



I'm sorry but where do you find this definition?



Interestingly enough, God being Holy never gave any instruction on a "representation" of who He was to be made so that the people could look upon it and worship Him through it.

A graven image, by definition, is an idol. For it to be graven, it must be worshipped. So the passage says "You shall not make any idols". But God Himself directed Moses to make an image-the seraph serpent. The reason we were prohibited from making images of God, in the OT, was that we could have no possible idea what God looked like. After Christ, we knew.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Psalm 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

If you run the words idols and images (together) they come up separately but together in many verses

The highlighed portion should include the word serve.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But some judgments are hard to avoid, for example, the Ronald Mcdonald statue example. If we would see such a thing as this...

Notice they are all before a Ronald McDonald statue, they are all kneeling, and all have fries in their hands, to me I would judge (by this picture) they were mocking kneeling before images.

I would feel very correct in that judgment. Not one against their soul, but in judgment of my opinion. To believe them serious (and condemn their souls) would seem to be a little harsh (on my end). I dont honestly think these men believe the Ronald McDonald image has any power (whatsoever) if they did believe this they would not be doing this irreverantly as they are doing.

So there would be my difference of opinion between believing these men believe theres any power in that statue and the other, its their mannerisms toward that image that informs me nothing sacred is really going on here. They are making fun of the idea, not putting off any kind of seriousness (that I can tell) toward doing what they are doing.

So my opinion (which is also my judgment) would conclude here these are making fun in their role playing. Whether God judges my judgment as correct (in my estimation) or not, I dont know, but I highly doubt many would believe my judgment is incorrect. However, if there was a difference in opinion I certainly wont argue with someone taking these guys more seriously then I do.




A man and not a God, or a creature and not the Creator, yes. Images of men. I did read somewhere that he also was against images, given the man stripped naked and took off to practice the less is more thing, I definately dont pick up (from him) that he would be crazy about that. I was reading into this last night.




Wasnt sure if they had anything, went to a catholic site a few times on this and they are very back and forth on having a Buddha figure and the philosphy of Buddha. But thanks for that, was curious if there was anything more official then the extreme takes between catholics on this issue.

The Church certainly doesn't agree with Buddhism, though she does recognize that all major religions have some degree of Truth. You could always ask me. Or Warrior Angel, or DC, or Rhamiel...