Something About Mary

[Fireinfolding]

You're right. The point is that what might seem wrong may not be wrong at all. So if someone is kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, it doesn't mean the person is paying even the smallest attention of worship to the statue. The person is asking Mary for the favor of intercession with God. All devotions involving saints and Mary reflect right to God.

You could appeal to Mary before a Ronald McDonald statute then if your not. I mean it would become fairly unimportant to do so (as far as the practice goes) and far more easier to walk away from I would think.

I would also admit that if I saw someone down on their knees before a Ronald McDonald (statue) or whichever thing in cement (there be) and praying (regularly) toward these graven pieces... I couldnt help but think the cement forms (along with the ritualistic practice) had some kind of power (to them).

Well, at least in their own minds. And more especially so through observation (of such regular practices).

Like if you observe Buddhists. And these too will often set aside a room or a part of a room as a shrine. There will commonly be a statue of Buddha, candles, and an incense burner. It's also common for them to use prayer beads to mark the number of repetitions of a mantra, even a prayer wheel is utilized by some of them too, so its not such an uncommon practice in various world religions. Buddhists also would protest that they (themselves) are not idol worshippers. Because to them idolatry generally means erecting images of unknown gods and goddesses in various shapes and sizes and to pray directly to these images.

They say similarly, that "the worshipping" at the Buddha image is just to revere the image of the Buddha as a gesture to the one they deem the greatest, wisest, most benevolent, compassionate and holy man who has ever lived in this world. So the worship of their Buddha is really just paying homage, veneration and devotion to Him and what He represents, but not to the stone or metal figure either. Responses ofcourse varry greatly (well, on catholic forums) concerning Buddhists though, so hard to tell anything (on them) because you can read both condemnation and approval (so depends). I should ask, where do I find the official catholic stance on this, could you direct me on this?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

You're right. The point is that what might seem wrong may not be wrong at all. So if someone is kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, it doesn't mean the person is paying even the smallest attention of worship to the statue. The person is asking Mary for the favor of intercession with God. All devotions involving saints and Mary reflect right to God.

Or you can just ask God the Father and allow the Holy Spirit to intercede for you, in Jesus' name.

 

[Rev Randy]

Or you can just ask God the Father and allow the Holy Spirit to intercede for you, in Jesus' name.

Asking another to pray for you is wisdom. Be it Mary, the Saints or those you worship with. All are equally alive and some have a better view.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Asking another to pray for you is wisdom. Be it Mary, the Saints or those you worship with. All are equally alive and some have a better view.

The wises thing I know is to go to the Father:

And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will he hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the request that we have asked of Him.
1 John 5:14-15​

I know that we have Scripture telling us to pray for each other and in each context it is dealing with the physical brothers and sisters, asking to pray for one another. Often cited is 1 Timothy 2:1 but people forget about 2-7 which puts everything on a physical plane. We pray for each other, I get that. But to say that we can ask those Christians who are asleep in Christ to pray for us thinking that they can hear us is not fair to them. We know for sure that God hears us,we know that Jesus taught us to pray to God the Father, we know that the Spirit intercedes and Jesus Mediates, we know that I can go to my brother and sister in Christ to pray for me, and I can pray for them I do not, however, know anything about those asleep in Christ.

 

[Rev Randy]

The wises thing I know is to go to the Father:

And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will he hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the request that we have asked of Him.
1 John 5:14-15​

I know that we have Scripture telling us to pray for each other and in each context it is dealing with the physical brothers and sisters, asking to pray for one another. Often cited is 1 Timothy 2:1 but people forget about 2-7 which puts everything on a physical plane. We pray for each other, I get that. But to say that we can ask those Christians who are asleep in Christ to pray for us thinking that they can hear us is not fair to them. We know for sure that God hears us,we know that Jesus taught us to pray to God the Father, we know that the Spirit intercedes and Jesus Mediates, we know that I can go to my brother and sister in Christ to pray for me, and I can pray for them I do not, however, know anything about those asleep in Christ.

The Revelation explains it pretty well. It's the body of a man that sleeps in the grave. Revelation shows where the souls are.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The Revelation explains it pretty well. It's the body of a man that sleeps in the grave. Revelation shows where the souls are.

I am not asking about their souls but about how things work spiritually for them. I know that God hears us but I have no idea if, those asleep in Christ, can hear us asking for their praying for us on our behalf. But even so, if the direct route is to the Father Himself, I'll go that route.

 

[Rev Randy]

I am not asking about their souls but about how things work spiritually for them. I know that God hears us but I have no idea if, those asleep in Christ, can hear us asking for their praying for us on our behalf. But even so, if the direct route is to the Father Himself, I'll go that route.

Without a doubt we have direct access. Our problem is that we, not knowing things spiritual, often ask amiss.We see darkly but those with Christ see clearly.
I'm not asking you to ask the Saints for prayer especially if your faith is not into it. Just pray in the manner you can pray believing.
For me, I seek all the help I can get.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Without a doubt we have direct access. Our problem is that we, not knowing things spiritual, often ask amiss.We see darkly but those with Christ see clearly.
I'm not asking you to ask the Saints for prayer especially if your faith is not into it. Just pray in the manner you can pray believing.
For me, I seek all the help I can get.

I am never the person to encourage a belief that is not in Scripture and I don't want to walk away for this conversation with the idea that we are in agreement that "you keep doing what works for you and I'll do likewise". I am one of those crazy people who, if wrong in my thinking about anything of God, I want to be corrected so that I don't twist Scripture and say what I want it to say. My desire is to know His truth even if I believed something for so long, if i am wrong per Scriptue, I will change my thinking. But I'm going to step away from this conversation with a full assurance that I don't agree with your reasoning, if only because I don't think this conversation is benefitting either of us.

 

[sculleywr]

Or you can just ask God the Father and allow the Holy Spirit to intercede for you, in Jesus' name.

But would you be able to pray continually to God, in every second of the whole day? Would you be able to spend every minute of your time praying to God? Would you be praying that whole time for exactly what is the will of God? Or would you, as happens to most, if not all, people on earth, allow selfish desires to creep into your prayers?

No, you could do none of these things, because you are still mortal and sinful. Those who have gone into heaven ahead of us have taken off sinfulness and mortality and have been granted, by the grace of God, the holiness and immortality which is promised. They neither hunger nor thirst. They are never tired or needy. They are never filled with sinful desire. They are constantly praying around the throne of God.

As they are there, we may ask for their intercessions to Christ that our needs may be filled by their prayers, as the prayers of a righteous man avail much. How much more, then, would the prayers of perfect and holy men and women avail? If a righteous, yet still imperfect man can have great effect through his prayer, how much more could one whose imperfections have been cleansed effect our lives through prayer?

Simply put, if we can make prayer requests of our living brothers and sisters in Christ, then we can make those same requests of the brothers and sisters gone before us. And that fact, more than any besides Christ's salvation, gives me the greatest joy and hope, for I know that my brother is numbered among those.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Folks don't worship their stomach as a god yet He says it IS their god.

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach,
and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Anything can be our god - when we put it in importance above the Lord.
Our own children can be our idols... if we have love [evidently in the case of eating] more than God - in replacement of God - above God - it is an idol.
And that verse does come after this on - so i thot it prudent to add.

Philipphians
[17] Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model.

We all follow Saints - on occasion we say the old adage 'saints preserve me.' - ie pray for me - Paul says to do this.
The Church has so many role models to follow. I know - in my own experience - i can say 'St ____ went thru this...' It strengthens me.

You could appeal to Mary before a Ronald McDonald statute then if your not.

Actually i have probably done that.
I think of someone and i pray... and remember the Memorare. Which is true....
I suppose one must experience her help to know how powerful her love is for humanity and the Lord to always want to bridge the gap.

IT works like this - Mary points to Jesus. We know when we ask - we are literally asking 'Mom' to go to Jesus - and we are granted miracles. She has a whole lot pf persuasion.
Why does she do this?
Because when miracles occur - ppl are drawn to God.
This is what she wants. She wants souls to be in eternity with the Lord because it pleases Him and she wants to soothe Him with her love.

But - no - i dont need a specific statute to pray in front of - but i tell you this - i find my mind goes to God - and all His beautiful creation when i see my statute of our Lady in my garden...every single time. It is probably because i understand what i do. I have no fears of it - because i do not worship our Lady.
I love our Lady - and in part thankful as i would be for anyone who assists me - and i respect her, venerate her and always thru her - i think of her Son, our Lord.

All holy images remind me of God.

Nativity scenes, pictures of the Lord, Saints, Angels... anything that has to do with Heaven - because none would exist if not for the Lord.
Besides teaching in ancient times - images keep us on track - because they are tangible reminders of all things or ppl in Heaven.
Thats a whole different thing than 'worshiping them.'

 

[WarriorAngel]

But would you be able to pray continually to God, in every second of the whole day? Would you be able to spend every minute of your time praying to God? Would you be praying that whole time for exactly what is the will of God? Or would you, as happens to most, if not all, people on earth, allow selfish desires to creep into your prayers?

Actually - having so many reminders in my home - verses of scriptures on a cross - pictures that say 'Remember you are God's special gift to me...'
Statutes, icons and pictures, angels also in my garden next to our Lady - you could say every turn i make i am reminded.
And it has helped me pray often. Not 24/7 as i should - but probably more like 75% of the time.

No, you could do none of these things, because you are still mortal and sinful. Those who have gone into heaven ahead of us have taken off sinfulness and mortality and have been granted, by the grace of God, the holiness and immortality which is promised. They neither hunger nor thirst. They are never tired or needy. They are never filled with sinful desire. They are constantly praying around the throne of God.

Yes, and that prayer is constant glorification and praise and wonderment.
His love fills us and so much so - we become like sponges that are too full to contain it and we pour out His love thru us.
This is why generally anyone in heaven - still has great possession of love to want to pray and help others - on earth.
If they are asked.

That powerful love is not just self absorbed - it literally becomes one of absolute selflessness and desire for others.... because it is God's love filling them - it infuses those in Heaven with an abundance to want to do what pleases Him. What pleases Him is love for Him and others.

Its remarkable actually. And its not forgetful. Nor can it be... in manner of giving love.
[Tho it is forgetful of pain]

As they are there, we may ask for their intercessions to Christ that our needs may be filled by their prayers, as the prayers of a righteous man avail much. How much more, then, would the prayers of perfect and holy men and women avail? If a righteous, yet still imperfect man can have great effect through his prayer, how much more could one whose imperfections have been cleansed effect our lives through prayer?

Simply put, if we can make prayer requests of our living brothers and sisters in Christ, then we can make those same requests of the brothers and sisters gone before us. And that fact, more than any besides Christ's salvation, gives me the greatest joy and hope, for I know that my brother is numbered among those.

 

[WarriorAngel]

A thought occurred to me - i come to CF the same as using icons and statutes.
It keeps me grounded - keeps my mind on the Lord.

Reminding me of Him - since it was based on Him to create this place. Just as statutes are based on Him and those who followed Him.
You folks are like living icons..

CF is not my idol - tho i am sure it could be one - if it replaces anything for His love.
It doesnt tho - it pulls me to Him.

 

[motherprayer]

A thought occurred to me - i come to CF the same as using icons and statutes.
It keeps me grounded - keeps my mind on the Lord.

Reminding me of Him - since it was based on Him to create this place. Just as statutes are based on Him and those who followed Him.
You folks are like living icons..

CF is not my idol - tho i am sure it could be one - if it replaces anything for His love.
It doesnt tho - it pulls me to Him.

Amen to that! Haha I've been trying to convince my husband that this is a Godly activity for 8 months now.

 

[Rev Randy]

Amen to that! Haha I've been trying to convince my husband that this is a Godly activity for 8 months now.

It is only Godly to you because you choose to make it so and you bring Christ with you.

 

[Rev Randy]

A thought occurred to me - i come to CF the same as using icons and statutes.
It keeps me grounded - keeps my mind on the Lord.

Reminding me of Him - since it was based on Him to create this place. Just as statutes are based on Him and those who followed Him.
You folks are like living icons..

CF is not my idol - tho i am sure it could be one - if it replaces anything for His love.
It doesnt tho - it pulls me to Him.

That just warmed my heart.

 

[motherprayer]

It is only Godly to you because you choose to make it so and you bring Christ with you.

Exactly! I've been on here when some seriously uncool stuff was going on. That didn't make it ungodly. Now, those times when I got weak and actually ENGAGED in the uncoolness? THAT was ungodly.

But.

Sometimes He has shown me how to turn the UNcool, into something cool! And that is the Godliest thing in the world

 

[Stryder06]

I understand what you're getting at.

Nor do I agree with their opinion.

Well I knew it wouldn't be that simple.

But if we are to flee the appearance of evil, and if the judgement is based on a secular norm (as we live in a culture that does not cultivate a sense of the sacred, nor physical demonstration, nor respect for others as created in the image of God), then avoiding the appearance of evil becomes another matter.

Are you really seeing the heart in your judgement of others, or are you looking at appearances ?

There are many who are weaker who will be tempted by Satan to see evil where there is not - should these be the norming criteria ?

I don't judge the heart, nor do I believe that individuals are committing idolartry willingly. Evil is evil, and good is good. The bible says woah unto those who switch it up and say good is evil and evil is good. Now I'm not saying that this is what you personally are doing. What I am saying is that every practice we hold should be evaluated to see if it is actually pleasing to God.

I guess my question really is at what point did bowing down before images become acceptable and no longer looked at as wrong?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

But would you be able to pray continually to God, in every second of the whole day? Would you be able to spend every minute of your time praying to God? Would you be praying that whole time for exactly what is the will of God? Or would you, as happens to most, if not all, people on earth, allow selfish desires to creep into your prayers?

No, you could do none of these things, because you are still mortal and sinful. Those who have gone into heaven ahead of us have taken off sinfulness and mortality and have been granted, by the grace of God, the holiness and immortality which is promised. They neither hunger nor thirst. They are never tired or needy. They are never filled with sinful desire. They are constantly praying around the throne of God.

As they are there, we may ask for their intercessions to Christ that our needs may be filled by their prayers, as the prayers of a righteous man avail much. How much more, then, would the prayers of perfect and holy men and women avail? If a righteous, yet still imperfect man can have great effect through his prayer, how much more could one whose imperfections have been cleansed effect our lives through prayer?

Simply put, if we can make prayer requests of our living brothers and sisters in Christ, then we can make those same requests of the brothers and sisters gone before us. And that fact, more than any besides Christ's salvation, gives me the greatest joy and hope, for I know that my brother is numbered among those.

God didn't say that we have to be sinless in order to pray.

As for all the other points you've made, I don't know many Scriptures that explain to us the everyday life of those who are asleep in Christ so I'm not so sure if I understand the latter things you write.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well I knew it wouldn't be that simple.




I don't judge the heart, nor do I believe that individuals are committing idolartry willingly. Evil is evil, and good is good. The bible says woah unto those who switch it up and say good is evil and evil is good. Now I'm not saying that this is what you personally are doing. What I am saying is that every practice we hold should be evaluated to see if it is actually pleasing to God.

I guess my question really is at what point did bowing down before images become acceptable and no longer looked at as wrong?

It's the matter of the heart and not the actions.
For outward appearances are wrong - or Christ would have been wrong - for His outward appearances to the 'understanding' of the Pharisees was error.
He ate with sinners... WE know He came to call sinners - nd so He hd to accept them in order for them to feel accepted and want to please Him.

Same with what Catholics/EO do. Its not worship - our own witness and statements tell you we do not worship.
So why is there resistance?

Dont look at the actions - remember only the Lord reads hearts...
We know our hearts - i know mine.
I may be in front of a memorial - a picture of those who served our Lord - are important to Him in life and in heaven - and our mind comes full swing back to the Lord.

As i said - it's impossible for Catholic/EO to bypass God - for without Him - no one venerable would have existed.

So much as we use nativity scenes at Christmas to remind us of the 'reason for the season' we use pictorials every day of the year.
Some see a statue and reminds us - and some seek the icon to keep their mind on the prayer.

Its easier to pray near an icon - memorial than it is to pray in front of a chair. It keeps the mind focused and the 'conversation' improves with our Lady or [saint] because it is a tangible image of 'who' we are taling to.

Just as our mother or father would pass - or sibling. We take out their picture and say 'I miss you.' or... 'I hope you are in Heaven waiting for me...'
[noting having a loved one pass - puts us directly in mind of our own mortality and hope that they are happy with the Lord - they become our past - our reminder to want to do good to be with them again]

Its the reminder of them, not them being the object of praise and worship.

I think ppl fear things that just dont exist.

 

[Stryder06]

Idols are god-as-material.
Anything can be an idol - the biggest idol for many is "me".
And that idol is neither physically bowed to, nor graven ...

If we bow or kneel in worship, we will always look to be bowing toward something material as we live in a world surrounded by matter.

I totally and completely disagree with this. Whenever I see a picture of someone knelling in prayer out in a field of flowers, or on a grassy hill, I don't know what their denominational affiliation is. That would be someone praying to God. If someone else reads more into that, that's not your problem because you're not doing anything wrong. That's not an action that is prohibited by God.

If someone wants to see idolatry when someone bows -- they'll see it.

Yes, they will. That's not your problem. If you're bowing before God and someone wants to make it more than that, you can't help that, nor do you need to worry about it.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the difference. In both cases, one is doing 'good' that is viewed as evil. You just don't want to take that as far as it can go, lest it actually inconvenience you.

You're not seeing the difference because you don't want to. If someone's twisted mind see's me walking with my daughter and thinks that I'm a child abuser just because that's what they want to see, I can't help that. But the act of walking with my child is not an evil practice as defined by God.

Then maybe you should post that verse instead of telling Catholics what essentially boils down to as "You're sinning because it looks like you're sinning to me." :/

I did post the verse, and I don't recall saying that anyone was sinning. Can you quote me saying such? As of now, I thought we were discussing why some of us disagree with this practice and why.