Something About Mary

[Root of Jesse]

That's the thing though, the church should be able to tell. And we're not talking about money, cars, jobs, athletes, etc. Although I don't think those things get half the attention one may give to Mary or a Saint, and and that by most is considered to be idolatry.

From your response it would seem like you believe the only form of idolatry there that exist, exists in ones mind.

Interesting fact, if someone from Israel bowed down to a statue, that was considered idolatry. What's changed since that time? Oh that's right, the culture

Wait, wait, wait...

Athletes don't get half the attention we might give to a Saint or Mary? How fast can you sell out a stadium when the next playoff matchup is announced? How many millions do advertisers pay to get 30 seconds in a Super Bowl? Yet, when a well-thought-of speaker comes to a city to hold a conference on the Blessed Virgin Mary, they struggle to get half-full rooms.

Idolatry is out there, in every shape and form. Loving Jesus' mother is not idolatry.

 

[Albion]

Wait, wait, wait...

Idolatry is out there, in every shape and form. Loving Jesus' mother is not idolatry.

No one here has been talking against "loving Jesus' mother."

We have been talking about the worship of saints and improper Marian devotions and doctrines. Some have said it can go so far as to be idolatry.

Now, carrry on.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um, while I'm all for genuine information being provided, looks like there was a Pope Pius XIII
Pope Pius XIII -- Pope of the Holy Catholic Church

That's not a Catholic website...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wait, wait, wait...

Athletes don't get half the attention we might give to a Saint or Mary? How fast can you sell out a stadium when the next playoff matchup is announced? How many millions do advertisers pay to get 30 seconds in a Super Bowl? Yet, when a well-thought-of speaker comes to a city to hold a conference on the Blessed Virgin Mary, they struggle to get half-full rooms.

Idolatry is out there, in every shape and form. Loving Jesus' mother is not idolatry.

Or half empty

Perhaps the speakers aren't as well thought of as they may think.....

.

 

[Defensor Christi]

So do the Muslims...so don't let us stop ya

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They also believe in the virgin birth...guess you have to jettison that as well?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
So do the Muslims...so don't let us stop ya

They also believe in the virgin birth...guess you have to jettison that as well?

Yes they do!

They are at least closer to Christianity than the religion of apostate Judaism is, as the Jews have no concept of their future Messiah coming from a vigin....




.

 

[Defensor Christi]

That's not a Catholic website...

Yes...that is my fault...I said so here: #452

 

[Root of Jesse]

I said you consider us to be heretics, not that we agree with that.

Well, there you'd be wrong. I don't consider you heretic. I consider you incorrect on some things.

When Catholics say that Protestants are heretics, whom should I think they have in mind?

I've never heard a Catholic say that Protestants are heretics, so I don't know.

I would say that Nancy Pelosi gave a heretical stance when she tried to say that the Catholic Church teaches pro-abortion. I don't remember what the issue was, but she's a professed Catholic, and she holds a position that disagrees with the Church she professes membership in. That's a heretic...

 

[Root of Jesse]

So do the Muslims...so don't let us stop ya

http://www.christianforums.com/t3126280-86/
[Moved from GT]-Mary and Muslims?







.

Yeah, they do. But since Jesus isn't God to them, it's different.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No one here has been talking against "loving Jesus' mother."

We have been talking about the worship of saints and improper Marian devotions and doctrines. Some have said it can go so far as to be idolatry.

Now, carrry on.

Well then I agree. All improper Marian devotions should be stopped. The question is, who gets to determine what's proper or improper, and who gets to throw the penalty flag if they think someone is doing idolatry?

So, like everything else, it comes down to a matter of authority. The Catholic Church has always been the authority for the Church Christ founded. The Catholic Church determines what Marian devotions are proper or improper. For example, Medugorgje has not been approved...The Catholic Church says that all Catholics are not to worship Mary, but are to worship God alone. The Catholic Church says that, if you worship someone who is not God, you're in sin. If you die that way, God will be your judge.

Since the Reformation, Protestant Churches have disregarded the authority of the Catholic Church. And when they're called "heretical" they wonder why???

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes they do!

They are at least closer to Christianity than the religion of apostate Judaism is, as the Jews have no concept of their future Messiah coming from a vigin....




.

That's not true...Isaiah says that the Messiah will be born of a virgin...not a vigin, lol...

 

[WarriorAngel]

No one here has been talking against "loving Jesus' mother."

We have been talking about the worship of saints and improper Marian devotions and doctrines. Some have said it can go so far as to be idolatry.

Now, carrry on.

It drives me batty when ppl tell me i worship our Lady.
When God grants you the terms and conditions of reading hearts - drop me a line.
Til then - dont put your opinions on what i do and do not do.
Thanks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes they do!

They are at least closer to Christianity than the religion of apostate Judaism is, as the Jews have no concept of their future Messiah coming from a vigin....

.

That's not true...Isaiah says that the Messiah will be born of a virgin...not a vigin, lol...

My "r" key stuck. ..

And if ya believe that...........




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[SolomonVII]

Yes they do!

They are at least closer to Christianity than the religion of apostate Judaism is, as the Jews have no concept of their future Messiah coming from a vigin....




.

I would think that a better case might be made that Muslim is an apostate religion for Christianity.
Judaism never fell away from Christianity; they never believed in Christianity in the first place.
Islam on the other hand, was fully aware of Christianity, and rejected it, except in its superficialities, such as Marian devotion, for example.

What is your case for saying Judaism is an apostate religion, and Islam is not?

 

[Albion]

It drives me batty when ppl tell me i worship our Lady.

It is, of course, possible not to be aware of the implications of one's actions.

 

[Stryder06]

Do you know see the distinction used by the Church? This should clear up all issues...

Did you see my keg illustration?

 

[steve_bakr]

I would think that a better case might be made that Muslim is an apostate religion for Christianity.
Judaism never fell away from Christianity; they never believed in Christianity in the first place.
Islam on the other hand, was fully aware of Christianity, and rejected it, except in its superficialities, such as Marian devotion, for example.

What is your case for saying Judaism is an apostate religion, and Islam is not?

Regarding Islam, it did not grow out of or originate within Christianity, so that would not make it an apostate religion. Islam was a reaction against Arab polytheism and idol worship, wherein Mohammed said there was only one God.

I believe that the theory of Islam being apostate Christianity, which was put forward by some Christian thinkers, is incorrect and does not take the historical phenomenon and development of Islam into account. One could just as easily have said that Islam was apostate Judaism, as it accepts the Jewish prophets and Jewish monotheism.

I studied Islam and the Quran for over two years. I was extremely interested in Islamic mysticism and, to a lesser extent, Islamic philosophy. I hope you don't put my memory to test.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the view that either Islam or Judaism are apostate religioons.

 

[Albion]

Regarding Islam, it did not grow out of or originate within Christianity, so that would not make it an apostate religion. Islam was a reaction against Arab polytheism and idol worship, wherein Mohammed said there was only one God.

But in truth, Mohammad had been taught about both Judaism and Christianity and patterned much of his new religion upon practices and beliefs derived from one or the other of them. As you know, he even comments on both of them in the Koran.

 

[SolomonVII]

Regarding Islam, it did not grow out of or originate within Christianity, so that would not make it an apostate religion. Islam was a reaction against Arab polytheism and idol worship, wherein Mohammed said there was only one God.

I believe that the theory of Islam being apostate Christianity, which was put forward by some Christian thinkers, is incorrect and does not take the historical phenomenon and development of Islam into account. One could just as easily have said that Islam was apostate Judaism, as it accepts the Jewish prophets and Jewish monotheism.

I studied Islam and the Quran for over two years. I was extremely interested in Islamic mysticism and, to a lesser extent, Islamic philosophy. I hope you don't put my memory to test.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the view that either Islam or Judaism are apostate religioons.

I was more curious why LLoJ was specifically referring to Judaism was an apostate religion, whereas in the same paragraph he did not say the same about Islam.
The better case would have been made for Islam, I think, for clearly Islam sees itself as the fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity, while at the same time utterly rejecting the central Christian tenets of the resurrection and the Divine nature of Christ.

To say that neither religion is apostate from Christianity would seem to me to be more consistent though. The Christianity contained within Islam is more within the realm of the Christian heresies that Mohammed was exposed to in Arabia by the Nestorian and gnostics and their apocryphal works.

 

[Stryder06]

It's not my place, nor is it yours, to judge people's intent. That's God's responsibility.

We worship God, we honor Saints and we specially honor Mary.

Fortunately I'm not doing any such thing. What I am doing is testing the spirit, as we're admonished to do in the scriptures.

You see here, the problem is that I do believe there is a misapplication of the word "worship" here. The actions are essentially the same. You bow before God. You bow before Mary. You bow before the saints (in general, not you personally). However to distinguish "worship" from "verneration/honor" your church has simply instituted a word.

I personally believe that the actions done are just as important as the thoughts associated with it. Let us consider the following text for example:

That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:


Let's look at another verse:
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Now you say that latria is what you give to God, while hyperdulia is what is given to Mary, and dulia is what is given to the Saints. Now latria is defined as the adoration that is given to God alone. If we apply that definition to both of the scenarios in the texts here, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the Jews who fell down before the golden image were ascribing to it the adoration that belongs to God alone. You might have a case with the demon possessed man, but even there, it would be hard to say that the demons were adoring Christ.

What we can see is that in both instances, worship required bowing.

Looking at more examples from the scripture,
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Now in each of these case I would think, again, that you'd be hard pressed to prove that Cornelius and John were offering latria to Peter and the angel. It would be most likely that they were offering what you call dulia. In either case, they were both told "Don't do that."

Point being that the intent isn't what I take exception with. The very act of bowing down seems to be tied to worship. Saying latria, dulia, or hyperdulia, doesn't matter if the action you take along with those is an inappropriate one.