Something About Mary

[Defensor Christi]

How do we value the worship of Mary to the point that it is idolatry???

What is idolatry?

I understand that if we are fixated on money or athletics such that they take over our lives, that might be called idolatrous. But how does kissing a statue of Mary and praying to her in the belief that she has divine powers become a selfish obsession? How would that work in reality? Can you give us an example?

Is it selfish to love someone? Is it selfish to ask someone to pray for you? So to answer your question...it doesnt.

I cannot sit in judgment of someone and say, "you need to love that individual a little less..." can you?

 

[Defensor Christi]

So what to do if I see someone worshiping or overly venerating
anything or anyone?

What does that look like? How do you know?

 

[Albion]

Said the pot to the kettle. Rather mild next to the harlot of Babylon being led by the Antichrist Pope.

Is it?

There are a few Protestants and Protestant churches that take that stand, and it's one issue only. Compare that with the standard position of the Roman Church that all of us are phonies. Oh, yes, we are considered to be Christians--heretical, separated brethren in our ecclesial communities--but Christian.

 

[Defensor Christi]

So in the end, you just defer to your church's teaching. That's your right, but you have to appreciate, in return, that there is no Scriptural or Logical reason for those of us who are guided by the Bible to put any credence in this legend. So, no more throwing Bible verses at us, please, in order to prove your belief, since it is not derived from the Bible.

Perhaps you dont see scriptural reason or logic based upon your interpretaion or the interpretation of your theological body...that doesnt mean it isnt there...

 

[Albion]

Perhaps you dont see scriptural reason or logic based upon your interpretaion or the interpretation of your theological body...that doesnt mean it isnt there...

It's been explained to you why it isn't. And BTW, you do know that your Traditionist church isn't guided by the Bible anyway, so why even mention what it is or isn't teaching us at that point?

 

[Defensor Christi]

That's the thing though, the church should be able to tell. And we're not talking about money, cars, jobs, athletes, etc. Although I don't think those things get half the attention one may give to Mary or a Saint, and and that by most is considered to be idolatry.

From your response it would seem like you believe the only form of idolatry there that exist, exists in ones mind.

Interesting fact, if someone from Israel bowed down to a statue, that was considered idolatry. What's changed since that time? Oh that's right, the culture

What is idolatry? What changed was the attitude of the individual...the Church expressly forbids idolatry...I dont see the issue here. We are all responsible for our own actions, if the Church were condoning or teaching us to place Mary on that level, you would have an argument...you simply cannot argue individual conscience...

 

[Defensor Christi]

DC tried to switch to in his answer by which we mean valuing something Earthly so much that you make it, de facto, a kind of idol.

LOL...and when did this happen exactly?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Good to know what your church thinks about us

See my next post...

 

[Defensor Christi]

Ah, but remember that they are willing to call us Christians, so what IS our problem anyway? --the fact that they consider us heretics, rebels, disrespectful of lawful authority, religious Johnny Come Latelys, members of make-believe church bodies, bereft of real religious validity and without legitimate sacraments or clergy, and that we are unrepentant "anti-Catholics" for mentioning it when they say how egalitarian they are towards us as is shown by them saying "We consider you to be Christians?"

I want to apologize...I should've read that link a little more closely...I was in such a rush to find a link that explained the three theological meanings all together, that I didnt read who the author of the link was...

There is no Pope Pius XIII...this guys is from a unsanctioned "catholic" group that elected him "pope" in 1999...

Again, my apologies to everyone on the board...I will not let that kind of thing happen again...

 

[Stryder06]

Said the pot to the kettle. Rather mild next to the harlot of Babylon being led by the Antichrist Pope.

My brother, I've pulled no punches on indentifying the Institution of Rome. I've not once shyed away from proclaim the Papal Power to be in rebellion against God, and that harlot which rides upon the beast.

That however is about the organization. Not the people. So there really is no pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Stryder06]

What is idolatry? What changed was the attitude of the individual...the Church expressly forbids idolatry...I dont see the issue here. We are all responsible for our own actions, if the Church were condoning or teaching us to place Mary on that level, you would have an argument...you simply cannot argue individual conscience...

If my church forbids drunkedness, but hosts a keg party every weekend and pays for designated drivers to get the participants home, does the church really have any ground to stand on if someone accuses it of drunkedness by simply saying "Nawunnn! We expressly forbid such a thing".

 

[Defensor Christi]

If my church forbids drunkedness, but hosts a keg party every weekend and pays for designated drivers to get the participants home, does the church really have any ground to stand on if someone accuses it of drunkedness by simply saying "Nawunnn! We expressly forbid such a thing".

Now you are comparing apples to oranges...does the Catholic Church throw a "come worship Mary" party?

That is a bit silly...wouldnt you agree?

EDIT: I hope you saw my post here... #452 mea culpa...

 

[Stryder06]

I want to apologize...I should've read that link a little more closely...I was in such a rush to find a link that explained the three theological meanings all together, that I didnt read who the author of the link was...

There is no Pope Pius XIII...this guys is from a unsanctioned "catholic" group that elected him "pope" in 1999...

Again, my apologies to everyone on the board...I will not let that kind of thing happen again...

Um, while I'm all for genuine information being provided, looks like there was a Pope Pius XIII
Pope Pius XIII -- Pope of the Holy Catholic Church

 

[Stryder06]

Now you are comparing apples to oranges...does the Catholic Church throw a "come worship Mary" party?

That is a bit silly...wouldnt you agree?

They don't say worship, they say..what is it, hyper-dulia?

EDIT: I hope you saw my post here... #452 mea culpa...

I did. Hopefully you saw my post as well.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Um, while I'm all for genuine information being provided, looks like there was a Pope Pius XIII
Pope Pius XIII -- Pope of the Holy Catholic Church

No...sorry

Lucian Pulvermacher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Blessed John Paul II was still Pope in 1999...so perhaps there technically WAS one, he wasnt from the Holy Catholic Church...

 

[Defensor Christi]

They don't say worship, they say..what is it, hyper-dulia?



I did. Hopefully you saw my post as well.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Dulia

 

[sunlover1]

I'm butting in but I have to ask: Are you saying your conscience can tell the heart of another? I think I must have read you wrong.

Noooo You didn't read me wrong,
and noooo...my conscience can't read hearts.
God speaks to me through my conscience
and so it's GOD speaking that tells me right
from wrong in the case DC presented.

No lol.
God knows, WE, as the body, MANIFEST God
in the earth.
So with Jesus as the "head" and us as the "servants"
of the head if you will.. we are doing His bidding.
Fire posted on passage showing how WE need to know
if someone is walking in sin or WE can't' know to walk
away from that person.
Here's some more that might help you understand:
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin,
you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently.
SN:
Evidently some brothers and sisters don't "live by the Spirit"
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death,
you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin
does not lead to death.
etc.

What does that look like? How do you know?

Dude, how many red herrings you have in that basket?
Wait, you like caps better?
So, no answer then?
That's cool.
NP!

Scripture above, pray for them and restore them "gently".

 

[Stryder06]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Dulia

Looks like I had it right minus the hyphon.

 

[Rhamiel]

If my church forbids drunkedness, but hosts a keg party every weekend and pays for designated drivers to get the participants home, does the church really have any ground to stand on if someone accuses it of drunkedness by simply saying "Nawunnn! We expressly forbid such a thing".

lol i kinda see what you mean


this is how I see it
the Church tells you to love your brothers and sisters in Christ
but you can not have a big orgy and say "well you told us to love eachother"
there are healthy and respectful ways to love other people
idolity is like an orgy, a twisted and harmful "love" that hurts the people involved
but the proper love and respect given to the saints is like chaste and holy love that we are called to have for one another

the Catholic Church supports proper love of the saints
not idolitry

 

[Rev Randy]

Is it?

There are a few Protestants and Protestant churches that take that stand, and it's one issue only. Compare that with the standard position of the Roman Church that all of us are phonies. Oh, yes, we are considered to be Christians--heretical, separated brethren in our ecclesial communities--but Christian.

Yes it is as a heretic can be fixed. The anti-christ?