Something About Mary

[Stryder06]

Let me ask: for those posting here, what is the action of your body at prayer ?

I knell.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Let me ask: for those posting here, what is the action of your body at prayer ?

I sit when I actually can sit, and well... thats cause gotta spine issues. Besides I cant get the heck up again by myself if I got on my knees lol Though to be quite honest I mostly pray in a position of lying down, even though I pray throughout the day, in various positions, whether walking, sitting, standing or lying down.

So even though I dont get down on my knees (positionally) to pray I am thankful I still have my knees. Some people dont even have knees (or legs altogether) for that matter so Im sure there are exceptions to such rules (positionwise)

Daniel himself got on his knees and prayed

Dan 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Hard to pray (especially without ceasing) if always on your knees though. More especially if you have to work 5 or 6 days a week during which time you'd probrobly be fired if you never got up off of them.

 

[Thekla]

That's not what the text says. The text I quoted says to avoid the very apperance of evil. Christ did nothing that even remotely appeared to be actually evil/wrong. He was being accused of wrong doing by people who hated them. Their voice doesn't count.

Hanging out with prostitutes and tax collectors certainly has the appearance of evil ...

 

[sunlover1]

That's not what the text says. The text I quoted says to avoid the very apperance of evil. Christ did nothing that even remotely appeared to be actually evil/wrong. He was being accused of wrong doing by people who hated them. Their voice doesn't count.

Exactly.
Barnes' Notes on the BibleAbstain from all appearance of evil - Not only from evil itself, but from that which seems to be wrong. There are many things which are known to be wrong. They are positively forbidden by the laws of heaven, and the world concurs in the sentiment that they are wicked. But there are also many things about which there may be some reasonable doubt. It is not quite easy to determine in the case what is right or wrong. The subject has not been fully examined, or the question of its morality may be so difficult to settle, that the mind may be nearly or quite balanced in regard to it. There are many things which, in themselves, may not appear to us to be positively wrong, but which are so considered by large and respectable portions of the community; and for us to do them would be regarded as inconsistent and improper. There are many things, also, in respect to which there is great variety of sentiment among mankind - where one portion would regard them as proper, and another as improper.
There are things, also, where, whatever may be our motive, we may be certain that our conduct will be regarded as improper. A great variety of subjects, such as those pertaining to dress, amusements, the opera, the ball-room, games of chance and hazard, and various practices in the transaction of business, come under this general class; which, though on the supposition that they cannot be proved to be in themselves positively wrong or forbidden, have much the "appearance" of evil, and will be so interpreted by others. The safe and proper rule is to lean always to the side of virtue. In these instances it may be certain that there will be no sin committed by abstaining; there may be by indulgence. No command of God, or of propriety, will be violated if we decline complying with these customs; but on the other hand we may wound the cause of religion by yielding to what possibly is a mere temptation. No one ever does injury or wrong by abstaining from the pleasures of the ball-room, the theater, or a glass of wine; who can indulge in them without, in the view of large and respectable portions of the community, doing that which has the "appearance" at least of "evil?"

 

[sunlover1]

Hanging out with prostitutes and tax collectors certainly has the appearance of evil ...

How so?
How am I to be light to the darkness if they're never near me?

 

[Thekla]

I knell.

I sit when I actually can sit, and well... thats cause gotta spine issues. Besides I cant get the heck up again by myself if I got on my knees lol Though to be quite honest I mostly pray in a position of lying down, even though I pray throughout the day, in various positions, whether walking, sitting, standing or lying down.

So even though I dont get down on my knees (positionally) to pray I am thankful I still have my knees. Some people dont even have knees (or legs altogether) for that matter so Im sure there are exceptions to such rules (positionwise)

Daniel himself got on his knees and prayed

Dan 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Hard to pray (especially without ceasing) if always on your knees though. More especially if you have to work 5 or 6 days a week during which time you'd probrobly be fired if you never got up off of them.

Thanks, FiF and Stryder !

There are many different activities of prayer in our Church -- standing, kneeing, the sign of the cross, prostrations (small and great), as well as full prostration. Bowing from the waist in reverence may seem "big", when not considering that in worship one may be making many full prostrations, head to the floor for short or long periods of time ...

 

[sunlover1]

I sit when I actually can sit, and well... thats cause gotta spine issues. Besides I cant get the heck up again by myself if I got on my knees lol Though to be quite honest I mostly pray in a position of lying down, even though I pray throughout the day, in various positions, whether walking, sitting, standing or lying down.

So even though I dont get down on my knees (positionally) to pray I am thankful I still have my knees. Some people dont even have knees (or legs altogether) for that matter so Im sure there are exceptions to such rules (positionwise)

Daniel himself got on his knees and prayed

Dan 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Hard to pray (especially without ceasing) if always on your knees though. More especially if you have to work 5 or 6 days a week during which time you'd probrobly be fired if you never got up off of them.

National day of prayer today!


My most used positions are kneeling and standing and "pacing"
If I'm worshiping, I sing (and sometimes dance) in a standing
position with arms often raised up to the heavens.

If I'm only praying, I might get on my knees or sit or stand.

Prayer is some serious business man!

 

[Thekla]

How so?
How am I to be light to the darkness if they're never near me?

This is what Christ did, and it was interpreted as being 'evil', having the appearance of evil.

If we are spirit filled, having the 'appearance of evil' will not be as great a concern that serving/in relationship with God ...

 

[Stryder06]

Indeed, He did.

Our faith, Christianity, is not a religion of moral codes, but is relational (growing relationship with God, which involves the cultivation of the God-demonstrated virtues, and in this the cultivation of right-relationship with others and the self ).

Who says it's relational?

Throughout the 2,000 years Christians have been accused of the evil/appearance of evil - this based on whatever the 'moral code' of the culture.

Incorrect. They've been accused of evil because they were hated by the devil. Such an accusation does not count. Avoiding the appearance of evil is for your brother's sake. Should the heathen see you doing good but call it evil, that does not matter.

 

[SolomonVII]

You are onto something; in the east, Islam was originally thought of as a "Christian heresy".
Saint Silouan Orthodox Church: Islam: a Christian heresy
There are iirc (though I do not recall the authors) discussions/apology extant discussing this, or describing dialogues between Christian and Islamic apologists.
From memory, Mohammed -in travels with his uncle, a merchant- boarded/received hospitality at Christian Monasteries and was thus exposed to Christianity as a child. A young man I spoke with (Ethiopian Orthodox mother, Muslim father) claimed that one of Mohammed's wives was the daughter of an Orthodox cleric - another exposure to Christianity.
The monastery of St. Catherine the Great (Mt. Sinai) was granted protection in perpetuity by Mohammed.

Probably the earliest important Christian witness of Islam was John of Damascus. I am not sure if Hillaire Billoc was influenced by him, but he certainly agreed that Islam was a Catholic heresy, going so far to say tha it was a reformation even.
In terms of Mary, the Koran criticizes people of worshiping her too. She was part of his trinitarian God that he rejected.
On the other hand, from a completely different Christian tradition perhaps, but there is much in Islam that remains constant with the Catholic world when it comes to Mary.
I think it is fair commentary that modern Protestantism is more critical of Catholic practice regarding Mary than Islam is.

 

[simonthezealot]

You really need to understand what being capable of sin is. Some actions are objectively sinful, but when circumstances reveal the nature, they're not. For example, stealing food from a store is objectively sinful. When your child is hungry, and you take an apple to feed him, while still objectively sinful, the circumstances warrant it. So the sin is absolved by the circumstance.

Sin is not absolved by circumstance...What kind of un-biblical theology is that?
Do you realize how much scripture would need to be thrown out to hold to this ridiculous view?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hanging out with prostitutes and tax collectors certainly has the appearance of evil ...

That was his accusation but its written...

Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

 

[Thekla]

National day of prayer today!


My most used positions are kneeling and standing and "pacing"
If I'm worshiping, I sing (and sometimes dance) in a standing
position with arms often raised up to the heavens.

If I'm only praying, I might get on my knees or sit or stand.

Prayer is some serious business man!

Thanks

As before, if one does not see the actions of the body in worship, one will easily misinterpret the actions of the body in reverence.

But, it is really a matter of the heart that is central ...

 

[sunlover1]

This is what Christ did, and it was interpreted as being 'evil', having the appearance of evil.

If we are spirit filled, having the 'appearance of evil' will not be as great a concern that serving/in relationship with God ...

He wasn't giving the appearance of evil though.

Someone who has paranoia may think that when I look at him
a certain way I am evil.
But that doesn't make my looking that way an evil thing.
So it's not me GIVING an appearance of evil.
Jesus wasn't giving the appearance of evil and to be frank...
I really can't imagine why you'd suggest such a thing.

 

[Thekla]

Who says it's relational?

Our relationship with God is central !

Incorrect. They've been accused of evil because they were hated by the devil. Such an accusation does not count. Avoiding the appearance of evil is for your brother's sake. Should the heathen see you doing good but call it evil, that does not matter.

Satan tempts us to see evil where there is not ...

Would you deny your friend to help a woman who is weak and needs help (holding around the waist for support and stability) to get somewhere because someone might be scandalized that he is holding another woman around the waist ?

 

[sunlover1]

This is what Christ did, and it was interpreted as being 'evil', having the appearance of evil.

If we are spirit filled, having the 'appearance of evil' will not be as great a concern that serving/in relationship with God ...

It is a great concern.
I'm spirit filled and I don't even wear a WWJD bracelet IN CASE someone
were to misunderstand something I did or said.

Yeah, it's a great concern to me if it's written.

 

[seeingeyes]

That's not what the text says. The text I quoted says to avoid the very apperance of evil. Christ did nothing that even remotely appeared to be actually evil/wrong. He was being accused of wrong doing by people who hated them. Their voice doesn't count.

Here's the text:

"reject every kind of evil." NIV

"Stay away from every kind of evil." NLT

"Abstain from every form of evil." ESV

"abstain from every form of evil." NASB

"Abstain from all appearance of evil." KJV

"abstain from every form of evil." ASV

"hold aloof from every form of wickedness." Darby

The only translation that could suggest your interpretation is the KJV, so let's look at it in context:

"Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thess 5:16-22)

How does one "prove all things" and "hold fast to the good" while one is avoiding looking evil? It's not possible. It makes no sense in context.

But if you truly feel that this is the proper interpretation, then you should by no means ignore such a command. You might want to throw out your computer. If your neighbor glanced into your window, he might think you are using porn, since computers are so often used for porn. Better to get rid of the computer than to risk looking like you are doing evil.

 

[sunlover1]

Here's the text:

"reject every kind of evil." NIV

"Stay away from every kind of evil." NLT

"Abstain from every form of evil." ESV

"abstain from every form of evil." NASB

"Abstain from all appearance of evil." KJV

"abstain from every form of evil." ASV

"hold aloof from every form of wickedness." Darby

The only translation that could suggest your interpretation is the KJV, so let's look at it in context:

"Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thess 5:16-22)

How does one "prove all things" and "hold fast to the good" while one is avoiding looking evil? It's not possible. It makes no sense in context.

But if you truly feel that this is the proper interpretation, then you should by no means ignore such a command. You might want to throw out your computer. If your neighbor glanced into your window, he might think you are using porn, since computers are so often used for porn. Better to get rid of the computer than to risk looking like you are doing evil.

Barnes' Notes on the BibleAbstain from all appearance of evil - Not only from evil itself, but from that which seems to be wrong. There are many things which are known to be wrong. They are positively forbidden by the laws of heaven, and the world concurs in the sentiment that they are wicked. But there are also many things about which there may be some reasonable doubt. It is not quite easy to determine in the case what is right or wrong. The subject has not been fully examined, or the question of its morality may be so difficult to settle, that the mind may be nearly or quite balanced in regard to it. There are many things which, in themselves, may not appear to us to be positively wrong, but which are so considered by large and respectable portions of the community; and for us to do them would be regarded as inconsistent and improper. There are many things, also, in respect to which there is great variety of sentiment among mankind - where one portion would regard them as proper, and another as improper.
There are things, also, where, whatever may be our motive, we may be certain that our conduct will be regarded as improper. A great variety of subjects, such as those pertaining to dress, amusements, the opera, the ball-room, games of chance and hazard, and various practices in the transaction of business, come under this general class; which, though on the supposition that they cannot be proved to be in themselves positively wrong or forbidden, have much the "appearance" of evil, and will be so interpreted by others. The safe and proper rule is to lean always to the side of virtue. In these instances it may be certain that there will be no sin committed by abstaining; there may be by indulgence. No command of God, or of propriety, will be violated if we decline complying with these customs; but on the other hand we may wound the cause of religion by yielding to what possibly is a mere temptation. No one ever does injury or wrong by abstaining from the pleasures of the ball-room, the theater, or a glass of wine; who can indulge in them without, in the view of large and respectable portions of the community, doing that which has the "appearance" at least of "evil?"

 

[steve_bakr]

Sin is not absolved by circumstance...What kind of un-biblical theology is that?
Do you realize how much scripture would need to be thrown out to hold to this ridiculous view?

No, actually he is correct. It is not a sin for a man to take food to feed his starving child; or rather, it is a sin which is absolved because of the circumstances.

 

[sunlover1]

Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleAbstain from all appearance of evil. Of doctrinal evil. Not only open error and heresy are to be avoided, but what has any show of it, or looks like it, or carries in it a suspicion of it, or may be an occasion thereof, or lead unto it; wherefore all new words and phrases of this kind should be shunned, and the form of sound words held fast; and so of all practical evil, not only from sin itself, and all sorts of sin, lesser or greater, as the (w) Jews have a saying,
"take care of a light as of a heavy commandment,''
that is, take care of committing a lesser, as a greater sin, and from the first motions of sin; but from every occasion of it, and what leads unto it, and has the appearance of it, or may be suspected of others to be sin, and so give offence, and be a matter of scandal. The Jews have a saying very agreeable to this (x),
"remove thyself afar off (or abstain) from filthiness, and from everything, , "that is like unto it".''