Some say Heaven is on hold for awhile

[Der Alte]

Indeed that is what He does.
What He does not do is claim that He is about to go to Paradise - since John 20 informs us that Jesus had not even been there by the time of His resurrection on Sunday.
Jesus' statement is "verily I say to you today" -- on the day of His crucifixion apparently alone and condemned - on that day He makes this promise to the dying thief.
And the thief understands that it is on the day when Christ comes that this promise is to be executed in full.

If Jesus had not said what He did, would the criminal perhaps not know that Jesus was speaking to Him that day but on some other day?
Is there any other place in the Bible where Jesus or any other speaker used that terminology i.e. "verily I say to you today?" With or without the "amen."

 

[renniks]

Someone on a Christian social media group said when Christians die we go to sleep & stay asleep until the 2nd coming of Jesus. Then we go to Heaven. I never heard of this in my life. Then several other Christians agreed & said "Yes this is true, we don't go to heaven right after we die. Only after Jesus returns." What? I've never heard this. Did I miss the memo? Is this the secret I never learned in 65 years of going to church? Or is this something one denomination teaches? If so, which one? I'm off to work now, will be back tonight.

I never heard it said that way but I like it. "Put on hold."
No, heaven isn't put on hold. Heaven exists now.
Jesus confirmed that it existed in his time also.

 

[Neogaia777]

It would be like the same day either way for him though, etc...

The theif, etc...

And the moment would "blend" also, so that it just seems like you're only continuing a moment, but you changed realities, in this case, etc...

Like I said "anesthesia", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Is there any other place in the Bible where Jesus or any other speaker used that terminology i.e. "verily I say to you today?" With or without the "amen."

There are tools for that, etc...?

Right now, I don't know the answer for sure, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Ligurian]

Someone on a Christian social media group said when Christians die we go to sleep & stay asleep until the 2nd coming of Jesus. Then we go to Heaven. I never heard of this in my life. Then several other Christians agreed & said "Yes this is true, we don't go to heaven right after we die. Only after Jesus returns." What? I've never heard this. Did I miss the memo? Is this the secret I never learned in 65 years of going to church? Or is this something one denomination teaches? If so, which one? I'm off to work now, will be back tonight.

Who are the souls under the altar, and when did they get there? Recently, if they just got their robes... so, only the people slain are under the altar in Heaven? That doesn't make sense, to me.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the Earth?[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also, and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9-14 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands;[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. ...[14] ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:11-14 [14] And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

2nd coming, and those with Him

Revelation 17:12-14 [14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they that are with Him are called and chosen and faithful.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 14:1-5 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand having His Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 3:10-12 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee (ἐκ) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] ...And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God--new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God--and My new name.

Revelation 7:1-8 [3] Saying, Hurt not the Earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 8:3-12 [3] ...the prayers of all saints... [7] The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the Earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

[Der Alte]

There are tools for that, etc...?
Right now, I don't know the answer for sure, etc...?
God Bless!

I have been a Christian since LBJ was president and I even have an advanced degree in Theology. I am not aware of anywhere that particular phrase occurs more than once. I happen to believe that Jesus was telling the criminal, not necessarily a thief, that day he would be in paradise with Jesus.

 

[Neogaia777]

I have been a Christian since LBJ was president and I even have an advanced degree in Theology. I am not aware of anywhere that particular phrase occurs more than once. I happen to believe that Jesus was telling the criminal, not necessarily a thief, that day he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Well, maybe He took him with Him when He went then, etc...?

And I said didn't know "for sure" either, about the other thing, etc, but I had maybe thought there was no other place that it occurs specifically like that anywhere else, just was not 100% sure, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Ligurian]

And yet still resting.. IN fact it says they are to continue resting "rest a little while longer"

It's not as easy as that... ...or this:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
anapano = (reflexively) to repose (literally or figuratively (be exempt), remain); by implication, to refresh:--take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours, and their works do follow them.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto Me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.


John 11:11 These things said He: and after that He saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
koimao = to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease:--(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 28:13 Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole Him while we slept.

Stole Him while they were dead?


John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that He had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
hupnos = from an obsolete primary; sleep, i.e. (figuratively) spiritual torpor:--sleep.
koimesis = from koimao; sleeping, i.e. (by implication) repose:--taking of rest.


Which sorta makes all of this is clear as mud.

 

[Ligurian]

I have been a Christian since LBJ was president and I even have an advanced degree in Theology. I am not aware of anywhere that particular phrase occurs more than once. I happen to believe that Jesus was telling the criminal, not necessarily a thief, that day he would be in paradise with Jesus.

So then, you were taught not to care if the witness is first-hand or second-hand?

 

[Der Alte]

So then, you were taught not to care if the witness is first-hand or second-hand?

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? I did a word search. "to day" occurs 19 times in the NT. A phrase similar to what Jesus said to the criminal only occurs that one time. "To day" means "to day."

 

[Ligurian]

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? I did a word search. "to day" occurs 19 times in the NT. A phrase similar to what Jesus said to the criminal only occurs that one time. "To day" means "to day."

Luke wasn't there... so his witness isn't first-hand.

The only time "paradise" is mentioned in John or Matthew:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of My God.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 28:13 Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole Him while we slept.
Stole Him while they were dead?
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that He had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Because as I stated earlier --

The body "sleeps" every single night - but it is not dead and we are not resurrected each morning.

By contrast - as Christ points out in John 11 - when someone in the soul sleep state is "awakened" they are in fact literally resurrected from the dead.

It is unclear to me that this was even confusing at all.

 

[wendykvw]

It does not appear accurate to say that Jehovah's Witnesses teach "soul sleep".

from: What Happens to the Soul When We Die?
" To be more exact, Jehovah's Witnesses teach "soul annihilation." This refers to the belief that when we die, the soul ceases to exist."

There is a difference between the "sleep" statements in John 11, 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15 -- etc.... and the "soul annihilation" doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Charles Taze Russell as recall was a frequent follower of William Miller. Like SDA, JW believe the soul is not immortal and the wicked will cease and will be annihilated and the righteous will 'sleep' until the resurrection.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201512/the-soul/

 

[BobRyan]

If Jesus had not said what He did, would the criminal perhaps not know that Jesus was speaking to Him that day but on some other day?
Is there any other place in the Bible where Jesus or any other speaker used that terminology i.e. "verily I say to you today?" With or without the "amen."

#1 The criminal already set the context for his request "when you come into your kingdom"
#2 you are asking about punctuation ... and "yes" it is the case all over the greek text that in the earliest manuscripts ... no punctuation.

So it is
"
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

And your question becomes "how about introducing punctuation?".

You knew that right?

 

[BobRyan]

Charles Taze Russell as recall was a frequent follower of William Miller.

I don't recall that at all. My understanding is that Charles Taze Russell went to one single meeting one time long after the Baptist evangelist William Miller died - that was being conducted by a man who had followed Miller.

Attending a single meeting did not make him a follower of someone that had already died and had no actual church/denomination following along with him since his movement was across denominations.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Zacki, the historic Christian Church (all of it) has always held that the Sleep of the Soul during the Intermediate State is an heretical doctrine. Here are some of the passages that tell us why the church believes/teaches that this is so.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.​

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’​

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.​

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.​

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
.​

And here are some of the arguments that are made against soul sleep on the basis of the Scriptures that I just posted above.

1) Moses and Elijah met with the Lord Jesus and the Apostles on top of the Mount of Transfiguration. If the doctrine of Soul Sleep is true, how were they able to do that?​

2) How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord, if their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?​

3) How could Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ, if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state until the end of the age?​

4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?​

5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death
.​

It's because of passages such as these that ALL of the churches and denominations (Catholic AND Protestant) within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (specifically), and historic Christianity (in general), have taught/continue to teach that the doctrine of the "Sleep of the Soul" during the Intermediate State is heretical ..

God bless you!!

--David

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. ​

​

Luke 16 - a great example of a parable having prayers to the dead, and Abraham as sovereign in heaven over all the dead saints, the one appealed to for getting someone sent back to Earth. A place where Abraham seems to think that the only way they can come back is to be bodily resurrected.

No wonder R.C. Sproul and other scholars affirm this parable is not a literal event. Not because Sproul believed in soul sleep - but because he knew a parable when he saw one.

 

[Der Alte]

#1 The criminal already set the context for his request "when you come into your kingdom"
#2 you are asking about punctuation ... and "yes" it is the case all over the greek text that in the earliest manuscripts ... no punctuation.
So it is
"
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
And your question becomes "how about introducing punctuation?".
You knew that right?

I think maybe unconsciously I was thinking about punctuation. It does not make any kind of sense to me to think that when Jesus said “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise." That He did not mean that very day the criminal would be with Him in paradise. Or at least it would seem that way to the criminal.
I had some surgery in '09. It was supposed to be 45 minute laparoscopic but something went wrong and it was 5 hour open. What it seemed like to me was "Here is something to relax you." followed immediately by "Wake up now." I was not conscious of the 5 hours that transpired.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.​

Moses and Elijah.

Elijah: The OT says that Elijah never died - was taken directly to heaven by God - 2 Kings 2.
Moses: died but then in the book of Jude - we see a quote from "The Assumption of Moses" regarding Moses' bodily resurrection and bodily assumption into heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

I think maybe unconsciously I was thinking about punctuation. It does not make any kind of sense to me to think that when Jesus said “Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise." That He did not mean that very day the criminal would be with Him in paradise. Or at least it would seem that way to the criminal.

The criminal has already set the context as "when you come into your Kingdom" so I don't think that this was the confusing part to him.

And in John 20 on Sunday - Jesus state he had not yet been to Paradise - since he had not yet been to His Father's throne and scripture tells us that this is where Paradise is.