Some say Heaven is on hold for awhile

Blade

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"And then John informs us that at Jesus' resurrection He said He had not yet been to paradise, had not yet gone to his father's throne."

No what you said is not written for He said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

When Christ said today you will be with me.. then today that day the thief was with Him in paradise. No Jesus never said today you will be with me in Heaven where the Father is.

Things being said here sorry are no where written but just pure speculation.
 
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wendykvw

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I don't recall that at all. My understanding is that Charles Taze Russell went to one single meeting one time long after the Baptist evangelist William Miller died - that was being conducted by a man who had followed Miller.

Attending a single meeting did not make him a follower of someone that had already died and had no actual church/denomination following along with him since his movement was across denominations.
You can read more here about his biography. It appears Russell was influenced by the Adventist movement. Timeline Entry
 
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St_Worm2

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Moses and Elijah.
Elijah: The OT says that Elijah never died - was taken directly to heaven by God - 2 Kings 2
.
Yep :)
Moses: died but then in the book of Jude - we see a quote from "The Assumption of Moses" regarding Moses' bodily resurrection and bodily assumption into heaven.
Nope :confused:

Jude may, or may not have quoted the pseudepigraphal work called, The Assumption of Moses, in v9 (we don't know). That said, there is no mention of what happened to the body of Moses in Jude 9, only that his body had become a matter of dispute (for some reason) between the Archangel Michael and the devil.

The Assumption of Moses speaks of Moses' body being buried, as does the Bible. ~Neither~ speak of a "bodily resurrection" of Moses (as having already occurred) here on Earth, nor do they speak of his "bodily" assumption into Heaven, rather, The Assumption of Moses speaks of Moses' ~immortal soul~ being escorted by angel bands into Heaven (the Bible speaks of this indirectly, of course), while both speak of his ~mortal body~ being laid to rest in secret/in the unknown valley.

--David

"The earliest reference which can be relied on is found in the works of Clement of Alexandria, who, describing the death of Moses, says that Joshua saw Moses in twofold form when he was taken up (analambanomenon), one with the angels, and one honored with burial in the valley. This curious opinion is shared by Origen, who asserts that in a certain uncanonical book mention is made of two Moses' being seen, one alive ~in the spirit~, the other dead ~in the body~." ~William John Deane, The Assumption of Moses, excerpt.

"Moses died on Mt. Nebo in Moab without having entered the Promised Land and was secretly buried in a place not known to man (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). It would likely be that this confrontation took place as Michael buried Moses to prevent Satan from using Moses’ body for some diabolical purpose not stated. Perhaps Satan wanted to use it as an idol, an object of worship for Israel. God sent Michael to be certain that it was buried. This account was recorded in the pseudepigraphal Assumption of Moses."
~MacArthur, J., Jr., excerpt from Commentary on Jude 9
.
 
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Sorn

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Someone on a Christian social media group said when Christians die we go to sleep & stay asleep until the 2nd coming of Jesus. Then we go to Heaven. I never heard of this in my life. Then several other Christians agreed & said "Yes this is true, we don't go to heaven right after we die. Only after Jesus returns." What? I've never heard this. Did I miss the memo? Is this the secret I never learned in 65 years of going to church? Or is this something one denomination teaches? If so, which one? I'm off to work now, will be back tonight.
There are a number of things to be considered here.
Firstly, the most important thing is whether we have a soul that survives our death and is unique to us and is effectively us, out character, personality & memories OR are we biological machines and cease to exist at death, with perhaps some generic spiritual component that goes back to God but is no different from 1 person to the next.
I believe we do have a unique soul that does survive our death, and one that only God can destroy, so at the resurrection our soul gets mated or rejoined with a body, this time a much better and eternal body.

If nothing survives our death then God can only make a copy of us and it will be a copy of you that goes into heaven, but not you. I'm pretty sure you'd want your actual wife to be present in heaven and not just a copy of her & i'd say that God too will want the actual people who made the decision for Him in heaven and not a copy of them.

As to where our souls go when we die, well there is a place you don't want to be in and a place you do want to be in, but the place you want to be in may not be the main part of heaven, Heaven is likely a vast realm with many areas/levels. To start with, you will just be a soul, even Jesus will have a spiritual glorified body plus He is God so He can probably go places where you as 'just a human soul' can not.

Can a new immigrant to the US go everywhere the President can? No, some areas, (perhaps not many in this example), will be definitely out of bounds. Just because we are saved souls in Heaven does not mean we have the same access as God.

As far as i'm concerned, if I get placed in some holding area of the heavenly realm where i am to stay until i get my glorified body then thats fine by me as it will be a fantastic place even it it isn't the true heaven or the part of heaven where God resides, or angels or whatever else exists in heaven. I don't have a problem with Heaven having regions or levels etc, as long as i'm where the saved are, don't mind me, i can wait. The REALLY important thing, is that i have a soul that survives my death so it is me that is resurrected and not my copy that gets the benefit of my decisions in this life.
 
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BobRyan

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You can read more here about his biography. It appears Russell was influenced by the Adventist movement. Timeline Entry

Miller was a Baptist evangelist and never taught soul sleep or that the soul is not immortal.

Your link says

"Charles Taze Russell was reared in an evangelical Presbyterian home, but left Christianity as a teenager. In the 1870s, after encountering Millerite preachers who proclaimed Christ's pre-millennial coming, Russell converted, sold his clothing stores, and poured his life and money into promoting adventist theology. He wrote a series of books called Studies in Scripture that encouraged personal Bible study"​

Millerites in the 1870's were not Seventh-day Adventists. And as far as I know they never taught the doctrine of soul sleep.

Seventh-day Adventists officially organized as a formal denomination in 1863 and tried to first reach out to Millerites as new converts - but not many of the Millerites chose to join the SDA denomination. Your link does not say that Russell attended an SDA meeting but rather a Millerite meeting.

William Miller did not accept the SDA view on soul sleep, or the Millennium, or the Ministry of Christ in heaven, or the Spirit of prophecy, or the Sabbath.

from: Seventh-day Adventist Church - Wikipedia
"The church was formally established in Battle Creek, Michigan, on May 21, 1863, with a membership of 3,500"
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Moses: died but then in the book of Jude - we see a quote from "The Assumption of Moses" regarding Moses' bodily resurrection and bodily assumption into heaven.

Nope :confused:

Jude may, or may not have quoted the pseudepigraphal work called, The Assumption of Moses,

That is not a support for "nope" since you are backing it up by saying it may be true in that "may or may not" statement.

The Assumption of Moses speaks of Moses' body being buried, as does the Bible.

The book "Assumption of Moses" deals with ... "The assumption of Moses" - bodily assumed into heaven after being resurrected.

The Assumption of Moses

"The question, as to the origin of the narrative to which St. Jude refers, is answered by Origen, [99] who intimates that it is derived from a book which he calls the Ascension of Moses, Analepsis Moseos. That St. Jude should refer to a work current in his day, though not appertaining to the canon of Holy Scripture, is quite supposable, as there is good ground for .believing that in another place (ver.14) he cites the apocryphal Book of Enoch. The existence of this Assumption or Ascension of Moses is testified by many other early writers....

"Thus we see that the Assumption of Moses was a book known and quoted up to the twelfth or thirteenth century of our era. But from that time till some twenty years ago it has been wholly lost." Commentators on St. Jude were forced to content themselves with a vague reference to this unknown composition; and the words of Dean Stanley in Dr. Smith's Dictionary of the Bible (art. "Moses"), written in 1863, accurately represent the amount of acquaintance with the subject possessed by most people. Speaking of the passage in Jude, he concludes thus: "It probably refers to a lost apocryphal book mentioned by Origen, the Ascension or Assumption of Moses. All that is known of this book is given by Fabricius, Codex Pseudep. V. T. i.838-844." The fragments, however, printed by Fabricius are very insignificant, and quite insufficient to give any idea of the character and contents of the work. But Dr. Stanley was unconsciously inaccurate when he made the statement just mentioned. Already in 1861 A. M. Ceriani, the learned librarian of the Ambrosian Library at Milan, had published a Latin version of a large portion of the Assumption which he had found in a palimpsest of the sixth century. [117] It is curious that nearly forty years previously Amedeus Peyron had edited from the same manuscript some hitherto unknown orations of Cicero, [118] but the "Assumption" remained still undiscovered. It was therefore with the utmost satisfaction that the learned world received the news that fresh fragments of this apocryphal work had been suddenly disinterred. The MS., indeed, was without title, corrupt and imperfect, and in places illegible; but these circumstances only augmented the interest which was centred upon it. Here was a nodus which demanded solution at the hands of scholars. "Liber enim," as Erasmus says, [119] "prodigiosis mendis undique scatens, crux est verius quam liber." That it was the same book as the old Analepsis Mos. was proved by its containing the passage in the Acts of the Nicene Council quoted above. The discovery appears to have passed almost unnoticed in England, but in Germany it stirred the minds of savants with an excitement as great as that lately aroused by the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles." Professors set themselves the task of correcting, explaining, and supplying the gaps in the very imperfect publication of Ceriani. First Hilgenfeld, with the aid of other scholars, put forth a critical edition [120] containing a corrected text, which threw much light on the many dark places, and afforded a readable whole. A year or two later he took the pains to translate the Latin into Greek, no very difficult task, as the version had been most slavishly rendered from the original, retaining everywhere Greek phraseology and often Greek words. This he published with valuable notes. Then Volkmar [121] printed a neat little edition with a German translation and commentary. This was followed by that of Schmidt and Merx, [122] whose conjectures and corrections are remarkable rather for audacity than probability. Fritzsche, [123] the last editor, speaks somewhat slightingly of his predecessors' labours, but has largely availed himself of them. In his very useful edition he prints on one page the text as originally published by Ceriani, and on the opposite side gives an amended text with the lacunæ mostly supplied, and with copious critical notes. The work has never, I believe, been published in England. A useful dissertation on the book, which combines the latest information, is appended to Dr. Gloag's Introduction to the Catholic Epistles.

"There is another work which is sometimes confounded with the Assumption, but is entirely different in scope and treatment. This is an Apocalypse of Moses in Greek, written by a Christian, and belonging to the class of Adamaic books, wherein is given a history of Adam's life and death as revealed to Moses. It has been published by Tischendorf and Ceriani.

"Whether the Assumption was originally written in Hebrew cannot now be determined. [124] If its birthplace was Palestine, it is most probable that it was composed in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is evident that it was known only in a Greek form to those early writers who mention it; and it is also certain from internal evidence that the old Latin version which has survived was made from the Greek and not the Hebrew. The use of such words as "prophetiæ," "scene testimonii," "allophyli," proves this incontestably. The Latin of the translation is beyond measure barbarous and anomalous, the vulgar dialect of country peasants, and resembling the old Itala rather than any classical form which we possess. It appears, too, to have been transcribed by an ignorant writer, who has accordingly introduced many blunders of his own manufacture. As the MS. came originally from the Abbey of Bobbio, near Pavia, whence also issued the famous Muratorian Canon (the language of which is very similar to that of the Assumption), it was probably copied by one of the inmates of that establishment, "stronger," as Colani says, "in caligraphy than Latin."

...
"The earliest reference which can be relied on is found in the works of Clemens Alexandrinus, [103] who, describing the death of Moses, says it is probable that Joshua saw Moses in twofold form when he was taken up (analambanomenon), one with the angels, and one honoured with burial in the valley. This curious opinion is shared by Origen, [104] who asserts that in a certain uncanonical book mention is made of two Moses' being seen, one alive in the spirit, the other dead in the body. Evodius, [105] a contemporary of St. Augustine, has the same gloss, derived from the same source: "When he ascended the mountain to die, the power of his body brought it to pass, that there should be one body to commit to earth, and another to be the companion of his attendant angel." Another legend, traced to the same origin, [106] recounts how at Moses' death a bright cloud so dazzled the eyes of the bystanders that they saw neither when he died nor where he was buried....
...
"Here the manuscript ends, some ten or twelve leaves being lost. The missing fragment doubtless contained the conclusion of Moses' address, and then told how Joshua departed to his appointed work, and how Moses took his Pisgah view of the promised land, died, was buried by the angels in spite of Satan's opposition, and received his "assumption" -- his mortal body being laid to rest in the unknown valley, his immortal part being escorted by angel bands to heaven itself.

"It is unfortunate that the only quotations of, and references to, the Assumption which have reached us from antiquity contain sentences and statements not now extant, though there can be no reasonable doubt that they were portions of the original document. From our present fragments we can gather enough, however, to teach us the importance and utility of the work."
 
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BobRyan

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"And then John informs us that at Jesus' resurrection He said He had not yet been to paradise, had not yet gone to his father's throne."

No what you said is not written for He said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

The Bible says that Paradise is in the third heaven AND that it is where the Tree of Life and throne of God are. That is the only location for it ever given in scripture.

In the Bible - Paradise is heaven.

Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in Paradise.
Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.


In John 20 Jesus said that as of Sunday morning He still had not been there.

Not sure how you are solving that for the view you hold.
 
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BobRyan

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When Christ said today you will be with me.. then today that day the thief was with Him in paradise. No Jesus never said today you will be with me in Heaven where the Father is. .

1. The Bible only has one location for Paradise ..
- Paradise is heaven.

  • Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in Paradise.
  • Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
  • 2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
  • Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.

2. Christ said "truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" - and then we find that Jesus had not been to Paradise even as late as John 20 - on Sunday. The thief sets the context "WHEN you come into your kingdom"

There is no way around it.
 
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BobRyan

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There are a number of things to be considered here.
Firstly, the most important thing is whether we have a soul that survives our death and is unique to us and is effectively us, out character, personality & memories

Which Matt 10:28 specifically affirms. But 1 Thess 4;13-18 declares to be in a dormant state. As does Christ in John 11.

I believe we do have a unique soul that does survive our death, and one that only God can destroy, so at the resurrection our soul gets mated or rejoined with a body, this time a much better and eternal body.

agreed.

If nothing survives our death then God can only make a copy of us and it will be a copy of you that goes into heaven, but not you. I'm pretty sure you'd want your actual wife to be present in heaven and not just a copy of her & i'd say that God too will want the actual people who made the decision for Him in heaven and not a copy of them.

agreed.

As to where our souls go when we die, well there is a place you don't want to be in and a place you do want to be in, .

The Bible says that when a human dies the spirit goes to God and the body to dust. It provides no "other" alternative. And since the dormant state of the soul has no activity - it does not matter if the human that dies is saved or not. They are preserved and will rise in either the first resurrection in Rev 20 or the second.
 
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Sorn

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1. The Bible only has one location for Paradise ..
- Paradise is heaven.

  • Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in Paradise.
  • Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
  • 2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
  • Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.

2. Christ said "truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" - and then we find that Jesus had not been to Paradise even as late as John 20 - on Sunday. The thief sets the context "WHEN you come into your kingdom"

There is no way around it.
  • Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in paradise
    (lower case p, ie a generic term for a wonderful place).
  • Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
    Rev 22 does not mention the word paradise
  • 2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
    Anywhere in the spiritual realm that is not hell will be a paradise compared to lowly material reality
  • Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
    And he was, that day, along with Jesus
  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.
    Ascending to the father and paradise are not the same thing. You are making an assumption by the generic uses of the word paradise to mean a fantastic place. God is in an area of heaven, are higher area that human souls do not go into, at least not until after the 2nd coming if at all. At the end in the new heaven and earth God comes to us, we do not go to him
 
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Sorn

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Which Matt 10:28 specifically affirms. But 1 Thess 4;13-18 declares to be in a dormant state. As does Christ in John 11.
I'm of the view that sleep was a colloquial term to make death sound less harsh, like us saying 'passed away' rather than died.
 
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Sorn

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The Bible says that when a human dies the spirit goes to God and the body to dust. It provides no "other" alternative. And since the dormant state of the soul has no activity - it does not matter if the human that dies is saved or not. They are preserved and will rise in either the first resurrection in Rev 20 or the second.
'returns to God' can mean many things, including returning to the realm of God. Just like a lost sheep can return to its owner, doesn't mean its sitting next to the owner on the couch, but that it is now back in the owners land, so it could be miles from the owner but still in the owners land.
The Bible is NOT a scientific text book and many of the realities of the spiritual realm are just alluded to or glossed over. The heavenly realm is not some small town but a likely massive area far bigger than the land in our planet or perhaps the area of an entire galaxy. Our physical universe can probably fit inside heaven!
 
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BobRyan

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'returns to God' can mean many things, including returning to the realm of God.

My point was that the only option in the Bible for what happens when a human dies is that the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. Not 3 options... just that one scenario at death.

Just like a lost sheep can return to its owner, doesn't mean its sitting next to the owner on the couch, !

God in a good place... vs God in a bad place is not the language in the text.

Eccl 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it

The reason there is no variance for good-person vs bad-person in that text is that the dormant state does not need such a division.

It is easy to see that the body does return to dust no matter if the person is good or bad. The text is showing us the same thing with the spirit.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm of the view that sleep was a colloquial term to make death sound less harsh, like us saying 'passed away' rather than died.

Jesus said "I go that I may wake HIM" -- and when the disciples take it too softly He says flat out "Lazarus is dead" in John 11. He uses their term for it -- so they will not be confused, but only when they insist on not getting the point that sleep is the state of death... the dormant state of the person.

John 11 to 'wake' means to "resurrect the body" from the grave and have the soul joined to the body.
The body dies (is killed Matt 10:28) in death - it 'returns to dust' Eccl 12:7.

The soul is then as Jesus said "dormant". "Our Friend Lazarus" sleeps. IT is clear Jesus did not want them to think that Lazarus' body was really taking a nap - so when they press Him on what he means... then "Lazarus is dead".
 
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BobRyan

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- Paradise is heaven.

  • Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in Paradise.
  • Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
  • 2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
  • Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.

  • Rev 2 says that the tree of life is in paradise
    (lower case p, ie a generic term for a wonderful place).
  • Rev 22 says that Paradise is where the throne of God is.
    Rev 22 does not mention the word paradise

Rev 2:6 But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.’

i.e. the Tree of Life is in Paradise.

Rev 22:And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life

i.e. Tree of life is where the Throne of God is --

So then Paradise is where the Throne of God is--

That is how that logic works.

  • 2 Cor 12 says that Paradise is in the third heaven.
    Anywhere in the spiritual realm that is not hell will be a paradise compared to lowly material reality

Whatever you may add to it - what we see in the text (that you are not quoting) is the actual information that Paradise is in the third heaven.

. 2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak

  • Luke 23 Jesus makes the promise to the thief on the cross that he will be with Jesus in Paradise
    And he was, that day, along with Jesus

Not according to the Gospels. In the Gospels Jesus had not been to His Father's Throne (where Paradise is according to scripture) as late as Sunday.


  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.
    Ascending to the father and paradise are not the same thing.

They are the same place but not the same thing according to Rev 2 and Rev 22
 
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Neogaia777

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  • John 20 -- Jesus had not yet been to Paradise - His Father's throne as of Sunday morning.

Where was Jesus before He ascended to The Father...?

He was in what seemed be like a more glorified form than us during that time, (40 days, 40 nights), but was a man or was human, etc...

Could pass through walls and doors, but, hey, appeared to be or seem like He was mostly human, still had the wounds, but no blood, etc...

Anyway, where was He (Jesus)...?

Rev 22:And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life


The Tree of life in two different places...? Hmm, now where have I heard of that before...?

God Bless!
 
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BobRyan

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Where was Jesus before He ascended to The Father...?

In the grave.

Notice that when Mary first meets him in John 20 Jesus refuses her worship and says "do not touch Me FOR I have not yet ascended to the Father".

but later that same day He is worshiped - they do touch him, he is held.

He had been to the Father later that same day.
 
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