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Some random discussion on evolution...

pitabread

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are you saying that we cant detect design when we see gears?

Not in biological organisms, no.

evolution doesn't offer anything useful to the study of biology either. we can study biology just fine even if evolution was wrong.

This is incorrect. The Theory of Evolution is foundational to modern biology, explains the diversity of species we see in nature, and has real-world applications.

Let me direct you what creationist Todd Wood has to say on the subject:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

The truth about evolution
 
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pitabread

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Non sequitur. From the fact that the arrangement of matter is NOT purely random, it does not follow that matter can be arranged into a structure, or structures, that fit one or more interdependent structures and then logically linked together.

Except that this is what we observe in nature. Just look at the process of crystallization for example. It's a process whereby individual structures (e.g. molecules) come to together and form more complex physical structures.

When you're talking about structural formation in nature, a lot of it comes down to basic chemistry/physics. It's just how the universe works.
 
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xianghua

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No, there are explanations that work better than design for those "gears".

why the quotation marks? are you saying that they are not real gears?


Yes. The gears tend to break with to much use, so when the muscles develop the adults use those. .

ok. so why this explanation doesnt fit with id too?
 
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xianghua

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Not in biological organisms, no.
so gears are not evidence for design according to evolution. see now why evolution is a bad science?


This is incorrect. The Theory of Evolution is foundational to modern biology, explains the diversity of species we see in nature, and has real-world applications.

real-world applications such as?
 
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Speedwell

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so gears are not evidence for design according to evolution. see now why evolution is a bad science?
No, not according to evolution. According to anybody who wants to detect design in objects, whether they are natural or man-made. Functional complexity is just not evidence of design, even in man-made objects.
 
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Speedwell

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why the quotation marks? are you saying that they are not real gears?
No, they are real gears. He put "gears" in quotation marks because you think that being real gears means they must have been intelligently designed.




ok. so why this explanation doesnt fit with id too?
Of course it fits with design, too, ID is an unfalsifiable proposition which fits with anything and explains nothing, even objects produced entirely by natural processes.
 
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Kylie

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id can explain many things that evolution cant. thuse its the best explanation.

No it can't.

What's the intelligence behind it? Where did it come from? Is it a result of ID as well (in which case, where did the intelligence-creating intelligence come from) or did it arrive without ID (in which case, why can't we say the same happened here)?
 
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pitabread

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so gears are not evidence for design according to evolution. see now why evolution is a bad science?

This has nothing to do with evolution. This about ID having no demonstrable methodology for detecting design in biological organisms.

real-world applications such as?

We've been through all of this before. Just go back to our prior discussions on the subject. I'm tired of repeating myself.
 
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Yttrium

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I'm not going to make this an actual reply, since the OP apparently isn't interested in discussion. It's just a thought problem I'm interested in working on.

In physical reality, interdependent systems are material. And anything material that didn't exist at the time of universe's birth can arise only by rearrangements of matter. As such rearrangements are constrained by computational capacity of the universe they are insufficient for arranging matter into system that fits an interdependent system. In other words, the number of matter arrangements that won't functionally fit an interdependent system is way above the number of matter arrangements that are generated since the universe's birth 15 billion years ago.

The computational capacity of the universe. There appears to be no known basis in reality for this concept, but for the sake of argument, let's entertain the notion, since I'm a science fiction fan. So nature is incapable of arranging matter into anything more complex than what, a snowflake? Or maybe God designed snowflakes. The problem here is that if I point to any complex natural structure, I could conclude that it was designed and created by God, so it's not really natural. Maybe nature isn't capable of producing anything beyond simple molecules.

However, if we're going to use the scientific method, then we need to try to find purely natural explanations for things. We might fail, if the supernatural was actually involved, but we still make the attempt. We see complex, interdependent things in nature. Earth's weather system, for example. It's dynamic, very complex, and involves the Sun and Moon. What universe computational capacity does a hurricane need to form?

We can safely rule out the computation capacity of the universe.

Also, interdependent systems must be logically linked to one another. Nature lacks causality for such linking. So it is physically impossible to arrange matter into interdependent state. You can't just wave a magic wand of just so story and make this impossibility disappear. So, nobody cares about what "the real theory of evolution" has to say about how interdependent systems arise because this theory inherently negates physical reality.

Causality for linking interdependent biologic systems. Again, there is no basis for declaring that nature lacks a causality for such linking, but that's not really important anyway. The systems were linked in the first place. Maintaining the link is a role of evolution. In the case of male and female, better ability to mate is selected for. Reduced ability to mate is selected against.

Well, there are also symbiotic relationships between different species. But I don't think the OP was concerned about those, so I won't bother doing the research, since I don't actually like biology all that much.
 
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SelfSim

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Gear arrays are described by fractals. In nature, fractals are the end result of iterative biological growth involving multiple 'builds' of the same pattern over and over again (by self replicating molecules) .. like fern leaves. The patterns can also be traced back to the basics of physics .. conservation of energy, kinetics, chemical laws etc. Evolution simply explains the suitability of the fit in our biosphere of these fractals (niches) .. and thence the onpassing of the associated efficiencies to subsequent generations of organisms.

Science's explanation of these patterns is quite complete .. no need for ID notions in any of this.
 
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xianghua

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No, they are real gears. He put "gears" in quotation marks because you think that being real gears means they must have been intelligently designed.

so a watch isnt evidence for design too. or a car.


ID is an unfalsifiable proposition which fits with anything and explains nothing,

like evolution.
 
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xianghua

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No it can't.

What's the intelligence behind it? Where did it come from? Is it a result of ID as well (in which case, where did the intelligence-creating intelligence come from) or did it arrive without ID (in which case, why can't we say the same happened here)?

irrelevant. id is only about the abillity to detect design in nature. nothing more. and we indeed can detect design in nature as we seen with gears and spinning motors.
 
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xianghua

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Gear arrays are described by fractals. In nature, fractals are the end result of iterative biological growth involving multiple 'builds' of the same pattern over and over again (by self replicating molecules) .. like fern leaves. The patterns can also be traced back to the basics of physics .. conservation of energy, kinetics, chemical laws etc. Evolution simply explains the suitability of the fit in our biosphere of these fractals (niches) .. and thence the onpassing of the associated efficiencies to subsequent generations of organisms.

Science's explanation of these patterns is quite complete .. no need for ID notions in any of this.
so gears and spinning motors arent evidence for design according to evolution.
 
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Speedwell

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so gears and spinning motors arent evidence for design according to evolution.
They aren't evidence of design according to anybody who seriously wants to detect design in any object, natural or man-made.
 
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Speedwell

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so a watch isnt evidence for design too. or a car.
Not unless there is evidence that it was intentionally manufactured by an intelligent agent. Just being a "watch" or a "car" isn't enough.




like evolution.
Except that evolution is falsifiable. The fact that you are not being honest about it is suspicious.
 
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Speedwell

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irrelevant. id is only about the abillity to detect design in nature. nothing more. and we indeed can detect design in nature as we seen with gears and spinning motors.
In that case, you're done. You detect intelligent design in nature, which is entirely consistent with the proposition that mechanism of evolution has produced the biological diversity which we observe. It's a win-win.
 
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pitabread

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and we indeed can detect design in nature as we seen with gears and spinning motors.

No you can't. Your detection of design in this instance is merely equivocation over the words "gears" and "motors" coupled with the false equivalence fallacy when comparing biological and non biological things.

If anything you've confirmed that ID can't actually detect design via a proper, demonstrable methodology.
 
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xianghua

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They aren't evidence of design according to anybody who seriously wants to detect design in any object, natural or man-made.
so you dont see design here?:

1.jpg


i think that many people will disagree.

(image from White Plastic Gears Loop Stock Footage Video (100% Royalty-free) 3054055 | Shutterstock)
 
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