Some random discussion on evolution...

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I've considered that as well and have concluded that it was God's purpose that the Israelites (northern Europeans) were design to prosper physically from the great blessing of being able to digest and assimilate milk.

That's just bad logic. 'God did it' answers nothing and is intellectually lazy.

I think you're dodging the question.

We're not talking about curly hair here but major changes; limbs, organs, bone, nerves, blood vessels, brain changes, etc. How long to consolidate these changes? How long from variant to finished product?

I'm not dodging the question. I did not understand what you are asking.
Although from your response, you're obviously asking for the tried and idiotic line of thinking of "Well, if evolution occurred, where are all the half-limbs/eyes/organs/etc?".
Not really all that surprising.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's just bad logic. 'God did it' answers nothing and

That's just bad logic. 'God did it' answers nothing and is intellectually lazy.

Not at all. If God was going to bless Israel with a land "flowing with milk and honey" they would have to be able to digest and assimilate it. Much of the world cannot do this now, and it is likely that few could in the ancient world. It was very unique, and is still somewhat. It also reveals the pastoral life that God wanted for Israel.

I'm not dodging the question. I did not understand what you are asking.
Although from your response, you're obviously asking for the tried and idiotic line of thinking of "Well, if evolution occurred, where are all the half-limbs/eyes/organs/etc?".
Not really all that surprising.

Forget the transitional steps. How long to consolidate a system, from variant to finished organ?

Expand to see my answers. Sorry for the foul up.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Not at all. If God was going to bless Israel with a land "flowing with milk and honey" they would have to be able to digest and assimilate it. Much of the world cannot do this now, and it is likely that few could in the ancient world. It was very unique, and is still somewhat.

The history for lactose tolerance in Europe and Central Asia 6500 and 300 BC, which puts it around about the time of what many historians and theologians believe to be when the Exodus occurred. Although was being used and drank in Egypt long before the Exodus is believe to have occurred so... your idea sinks quite a bit.

Forget the transitional steps. How long to consolidate a system, from variant to finished organ?

Why does that question need to be asked? What does it matter?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why does that question need to be asked? What does it matter?

I like details.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I like details.

Except you don't since you have repeatedly said that evolution is 'too complicated' for you to understand.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Except you don't since you have repeatedly said that evolution is 'too complicated' for you to understand.

I'm trying to suggest that evolution is too complicated for anyone to understand.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I'm trying to suggest that evolution is too complicated for anyone to understand.

Except that it's not. I understand it, although the exact minutiae of it ( I only got a B at GCSE Level biology, but science was never my bag. Much prefer history and literature) is quite well beyond my layperson abilities, but I understand enough of it for it to make sense given what I see in the world.
And if you don't understand it, why don't you try and remedy that fact by actually endeavoring to learn about it? There MANY low level science sources online that will easily show you why it's not the intellectual boogeyman you keep making it out to be.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The history for lactose tolerance in Europe and Central Asia 6500 and 300 BC, which puts it around about the time of what many historians and theologians believe to be when the Exodus occurred. Although was being used and drank in Egypt long before the Exodus is believe to have occurred so... your idea sinks quite a bit.

Even today the people of northern Europe (Israelites) have little lactose intolerance compared to other ethnicities.

Lactose Intolerance by Ethnicity and Region - Milk - ProCon.org

Sadly there are so many ethnicities in America that are lactose intolerant that dairy products are being given a bad rap here.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Even today the people of northern Europe (Israelites) have little lactose intolerance compared to other ethnicities.

Lactose Intolerance by Ethnicity and Region - Milk - ProCon.org

... and? That's because a lactose heavy diet. It proves nothing for your claims about Northern European people being given lactose tolerance by God because you think they're 'Israelites'.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

... and? That's because a lactose heavy diet. It proves nothing for your claims about Northern European people being given lactose tolerance by God because you think they're 'Israelites'.

But that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

But that's my opinion on the matter.

And that's all your opinion is: just your opinion.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And that's all your opinion is: just your opinion.

I'm good with that. I have many useful opinions that transcend the ToE.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

... and? That's because a lactose heavy diet. It proves nothing for your claims about Northern European people being given lactose tolerance by God because you think they're 'Israelites'.

So if Eskimos drank lots of milk they would become tolerant?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

So if Eskimos drank lots of milk they would become tolerant?

Any population would. That's a selection process of evolution at work.
Alcohol is an odd case though. Well... Russia exists... but they're strange.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I'm actually gonna quite this thread because this has turned, very obviously, into one of OldWiseGuy's "Look at me!" threads.
I'm oot!

 

[Yttrium]

We're not talking about curly hair here but major changes; limbs, organs, bone, nerves, blood vessels, brain changes, etc. How long to consolidate these changes? How long from variant to finished product? And where does the additional information come from? Or is it a variant of a variant of a variant of a variant of a variant that finally produced the finished product?

I will make my own lame attempt to deal with this, because I need to boost my post count.

What you call "variant" is indeed a mutation. It's a change in a gene. It might change a brown eye to black, or it might make the neck slightly longer, or the chin a little wider, or whatever.

There is no finished product. There is no time limit. The process is still ongoing. The environment shapes the process, favoring some mutations, ignoring others, and leading some to a dusty death. The environment can change from time to time, and so the pressures on the mutations change.

When you add a lot of small changes together, eventually, some day, you build up major changes. It's as simple as that. Something very complex went through many stages from something more simple. It didn't just spring up in one generation.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I will make my own lame attempt to deal with this, because I need to boost my post count.

What you call "variant" is indeed a mutation. It's a change in a gene. It might change a brown eye to black, or it might make the neck slightly longer, or the chin a little wider, or whatever.

There is no finished product. There is no time limit. The process is still ongoing. The environment shapes the process, favoring some mutations, ignoring others, and leading some to a dusty death. The environment can change from time to time, and so the pressures on the mutations change.

When you add a lot of small changes together, eventually, some day, you build up major changes. It's as simple as that. Something very complex went through many stages from something more simple. It didn't just spring up in one generation.

What are the environmental changes that would affect the variant of curly hair?

 

[pitabread]

Don't those 'small changes' have to be part of a larger change that is the end result. You can't have small changes that don't further the large change. This suggests planning and design.

It doesn't require planning if you're talking about a recursive process. Evolution is a recursive process. It continually builds off of what came before it.

If you are building a tower you can't have the blocks scattered willy-nilly all over the place. They must be placed carefully from the base to the top in an orderly way.

Towers are not biological organisms.

 

[Yttrium]

Don't those 'small changes' have to be part of a larger change that is the end result. You can't have small changes that don't further the large change. This suggests planning and design. If you are building a tower you can't have the blocks scattered willy-nilly all over the place.

Here's the thing: there is no end result. Like I said, the process is ongoing. You can have plenty of changes that don't further the large change. Your mammal can eventually grow wings while changing eye or fur color.

There is no plan that the process is working towards. Whichever little changes improve the chances for reproduction will become more common in the population, the ones that are harmful will be weeded out, and the neutral ones will linger on. A mammal might go from arms to gliders to fully functional wings over many tiny steps, with each tiny step working just a bit better in whatever environment the mammal is in. There is no plan to end up flying, and another population might develop different changes that work just as well.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It doesn't require planning if you're talking about a recursive process. Evolution is a recursive process. It continually builds off of what came before it.



Towers are not biological organisms.

Isn't that an example of 'recursive'?