Some questions

[mva1985]

Which of the comments set out in my post were inaccurate? If I've misrepresented something about the SDA denomination, I'm more than willing to discuss it further.

BFA

For one calling EGW a false prophet.

 

[mva1985]

RC,

I know we don't agree very often but I think you have been fair in what you posted.

Well to get this back on subject instead of the continuing "it's all about me BFA story"

The Adventist church is not a monolith it has members who hold various views on the subjects. Even the introduction to the 27 (now 28) fundamental beliefs book states that the church can change it views.

1. EGW is thought to be a prophet to a 19th century reformer to a deluded but still a Christian woman.

2. I could explain my understanding of the IJ but since I don't believe it I won't try. The average Adventist I think has a hard time with it and could only give a general description. And there are actually a few different views as it has changed through time. It originated as Christ plotting out the record of sins during the second apartment ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Today most Adventists view it as Christ showing the rest of the Universe (alleged unfallen worlds) that the people He saves are safe to save ( a horrible term in my view but becoming more popular).

3. Various views traditionally no combative but we have more and more members in the military including very high ranking chaplains.

4. I would tell them to go with their conscience.

5 I think in the US it is about half of Adventists are vegetarians (lacto-ovo). Most still think there are clean and unclean meats though certainly not all.

6. The church has no particular Bible translation. The more fundamentalist the Adventist the more likely they are to go with the KJV. The most popular I would guess is probably the NIV.

7. Most Adventists don't drink due to the health reform history. Some pretend it is Biblically instructed but I think most just see it as a health issue due to the numerous problems related to drinking more then moderately.

8. No views on cremation or embalming that I know of.

9. Don't know that the church has said anything about organ donations. Most Adventists I know of would encourage the donation.

on the Adventist.org site they have position statements on things like abortion etc.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

For one calling EGW a false prophet.

I can certainly respect the fact that you view this issue differently. However, I explained the reasons why I've reached this conclusion and I clearly articulated that my position on Mrs. White is merely my personal opinion.

I cannot pretend to accept Ellen G. White as a true prophet of God in order to avoid the term "back-handed." It is possible for us to disagree amicably, is it not?

BFA

 

[mva1985]

Certainly, we can disagree, but I believe the intent of the OP was to seek out answers from SDA's not former SDA's.

But I could be wrong.

I can certainly respect the fact that you view this issue differently. However, I explained the reasons why I've reached this conclusion and I clearly articulated that my position on Mrs. White is merely my personal opinion.

I cannot pretend to accept Ellen G. White as a true prophet of God in order to avoid the term "back-handed." It is possible for us to disagree amicably, is it not?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Certainly, we can disagree, but I believe the intent of the OP was to seek out answers from SDA's not former SDA's. But I could be wrong.

Brimac is welcome to clarify. In the meantime, mine is merely one perspective among many. Feel free to share your own perspective. Ultimately, what matters most to me is the presentation of the gospel. It is the Holy Spirit who has truth and convicts regarding sin and righteousness and judgment. That certainly is not something that I have, nor is it my role, nor do I want it to be.

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

Thank you, BFA. That is such a concise and lucid answer to the man's question. If I could add a couple of points. In The Great Controversy, p409, Ellen White states that "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' Daniel 8:14." Friend, that statement in itself should give you pause to think. Danel 8:14?


I beg you to find a church that builds itself around John 3:16 instead. Adventism spends all it's time on the books of Daniel and Revelation when what really counts are all those great books in between. God has seen fit to give us the gospel in pretty simple terms so that it is easy to understand. It is so much safer to base your theology on that simple gospel than apocalyptic literature that is written in code and so wide open to multiple (and potentially wrong) interpretations.

I was born, raised, and educated as an Adventist. I was a good kid, but I knew that I just couldn't measure up, no matter how sincerely or hard I tried. I finally just quit going to church and told myself that I'd try and be as good a man as I could and, hopefully, that would shorten the amount of time I would burn before I was consumed (and the doctrines of annihilationism and soul-sleep are direct results of the IJ). I always felt a hole in my heart, though. Something was missing. It was years and years before I decided to give the Lord another crack at me. My first impulse was to go back to the Adventist faith. I began reading the Bible and when I hit Romans, I realized that this was nothing like I'd been taught. I'd been brought up to read my Bible jumping from one proof-text to the next in order to show that SDA doctrines were correct. And there are so many verses that plainly read one way and yet the church has to tell you that "That may be what it says, but it's not what it means." What a difference now that I take my Bible at face value. I can't put the book down. All I can tell you is that if you ask God to help you read that book, He's not going to steer you wrong. Sorry for prattling on so.

With respects to all I believe this is great advise. I approve of the highlighted part of this message above.
I often challenge SDA members about what is written vs what is reasoned. I wish I was gaining friendships but I dont care about my image. I pray that everyone will stand on the solid foundation of the word of God as the truth they believe.

CRIB

 

[JonMiller]

Note that there are many different groups within the SDA church. What you find in your area might be different than what is here, or what is in the Traditional area. Also, if you happen to move there is no guaruntee that you will find similar.

I actually know of no group (or person?) that is in exact alignment with me.

I am considering joining an SDA church, but I have some questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

She was a prophet, but I don't think that she was special. There are some in the church, less now maybe, who seem to hold her up as more special than the authors of the Bible. I also think that there are many people who could be called prophets who have lived in the last 200 years, and definitely some who live now. The gift of prophesy was not pulled for 1800 and some years, given to one person, and than pulled again.

2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

Not really any of our business I feel. The only thing that makes any sense is that it is for the other intelligences, it definitely isn't for us as God knows us and could judge all of humanity in an instant. So if the Investigative Judgement is real, then it isn't important for us humans.

3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

We use to be very pacifistic. In fact, there was even a split that started due to WW1 and not wanting to be involved. However, currently in my church (and in the denomination as a whole) there are many people involved with the US armed forces. I can personally see both points.

4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

I have had to occasionally work on Saturdays. I don't like it, and I will try to make sure in the future that I don't have to. I think the most important thing is if working on Saturdays comes between you and God. If it does, stop.

5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

In the north american church the vegeterian possition is the conservative position. And it is a standard liberal standpoint to eat meat. Which is different than the greater US community as a whole which is silly. In the greater world church, I think most foreign countries people eat meat just not unclean meat.

6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

I have seem some prefer KJV, and others prefer NIV.

7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

Generally it feels that drinking is a sin. I think that drinking just sometimes causes people to sin, and that some people shouldn't drink at all but others can (no one should drink to excess). However, I do understand the point that "I choose not to drink to not provide a stumbling block to my brother". I personally do drink, but rarely (now).

8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

My dad was cremated. And it was his dad, who is very conservative, who put that through. I don't think the general church has any problems with cremation/etc. It is a bit of an issue because my dad didn't want to be cremated. However, he had decomposed a bit before they found him so that is why my grandfather preferred cremation.

9) How do you feel about organ doning?

Why would it be wrong?

JM

 

[JonMiller]

BTW, I think that the majority of adventists under the age of 50 are not traditional adventists. I think that traditional adventism is dying, and might already be a minority.

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Note that there are many different groups within the SDA church.

I agree.

What you find in your area might be different than what is here, or what is in the Traditional area.

I agree.

Also, if you happen to move there is no guaruntee that you will find similar.

I agree.

She was a prophet, but I don't think that she was special.

Perhaps I'm just not understanding. Aren't prophets by definition special?

There are some in the church, less now maybe, who seem to hold her up as more special than the authors of the Bible.

Possibly. At the very least, we can notice that the SDA denomination concludes that her writings are authoritative.

Not really any of our business I feel.

I believe it is relevant because the emphasis of the investigative judgment is that of man becoming holy, man becoming like God. The close of probation indicates that man must reach a state of perfection in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. That's a position that might warrant some additional thought.

The only thing that makes any sense is that it is for the other intelligences, it definitely isn't for us as God knows us and could judge all of humanity in an instant. So if the Investigative Judgement is real, then it isn't important for us humans.

According to traditional SDA thought, what is the investigative judgment based upon?

I think that the majority of adventists under the age of 50 are not traditional adventists. I think that traditional adventism is dying, and might already be a minority

Just through casual observation, I don't believe this to be true in my area of the country. However, I certainly have not conducted a scientific study to confirm it one way or another. Like you said, certain things may vary from location to location.

BFA

 

[JonMiller]

Do you think I hold to that view of the IJ based upon my reply?

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Do you think I hold to that view of the IJ based upon my reply?

Your reply does not seem to confirm or deny as far as I can tell. Rather, it is my understanding that you are suggesting that it is unimportant. I sense that the implications of the traditional SDA position on the investigative judgment are important.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[JonMiller]

The traditional view of the IJ is very important to us. I saying it is unimportant means that I don't hold to the traditional view (which is included in my reply). Also, on the comment of prophets being special. There is a big difference between 1 prophet in 2000+ years whose every word is treated as special and 10000s of prophets in 2000+ years...

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The traditional view of the IJ is very important to us. I saying it is unimportant means that I don't hold to the traditional view (which is included in my reply).

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, on the comment of prophets being special. There is a big difference between 1 prophet in 2000+ years whose every word is treated as special and 10000s of prophets in 2000+ years...

I guess I don't understand that distinction. Perhaps I would better understand if I were to ask a follow-up question. Do you believe that some of the writings of Ellen G. White were inspired by God? If so, which writings were inspired?

BFA

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I believe it is relevant because the emphasis of the investigative judgment is that of man becoming holy, man becoming like God. The close of probation indicates that man must reach a state of perfection in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. That's a position that might warrant some additional thought.

That really has nothing to do with the IJ teaching, either version. You are conflating last generation perfection theology with the IJ. The probation close stuff is simply saying that no man will change his status from saved to lost or lost to saved. (not that the probation closes has any real basis in the Bible until the actual second coming, but SDA traditionalist think it preceeds the second coming at some time very near sunday law legislation of which also the there no Biblical reference. Worse it places God as a torturer of people after the assumed close of probation as God pours out plagues upon people who could not repent even if they wanted to.)

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That really has nothing to do with the IJ teaching, either version. You are conflating last generation perfection theology with the IJ.

I suppose it depends on what a person would use as his basis of understanding the SDA perspective on the investigative judgment. If the writings of Ellen G. White are at least a part of the basis, then I notice that Mrs. White connects the concept of man's probation with the concept of the investigative judgment:

"When Jesus ceases to plead for man, the cases of all are forever decided. . . . probation closes; Christ's intercessions cease in heaven. This time finally comes suddenly upon all, and those who have neglected to purify their souls by obeying the truth are found sleeping. When probation ends, it will come suddenly, unexpectedly--at a time when we are least expecting it. But we can have a clean record in heaven today, and know that God accepts us. When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven." {LDE 229-230}

"We believe without a doubt that Christ is soon coming. This is not a fable to us; it is a reality. . . . When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have reserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. During probationary time the grace of God is offered to every soul. But if men waste their opportunities in self-pleasing, they cut themselves off from everlasting life. No after-probation will be granted them. By their own choice they have fixed an impassable gulf between them and their God. Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ, but there will be no conversion of heart at His appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above. Probation is almost ended. . . . Get ready! get ready! Work while the day lasts, for the night cometh when no man can work. {AG 243}
​

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)
​

Due to space considerations, I cannot offer the entire context for each quote, but I've supplied the citation so any interested person can look up the quote at the White Estate web site and consider the context for himself.

I don't offer this for your consideration because I believe that either of us will find it to be persuasive. Rather, I offer it because it explains why I believe that the SDA denomination connects the concept of the investigative judgment with the concept of the close of probation and also why I believe that certain traditional SDAs connect the concept of the investigative judgment with the concept of behavioral perfection.

BFA

 

[sentipente]

BFA, are you trying to get to truth or trying to show how much in error the SDA church is?

 

[JonMiller]

I guess I don't understand that distinction. Perhaps I would better understand if I were to ask a follow-up question. Do you believe that some of the writings of Ellen G. White were inspired by God? If so, which writings were inspired?

BFA

Sure, and I have just a bit of clue, but I have the feeling that Steps to Christ was.

If there were 10000s of prophets since Christ, and we don't cite their writings when we are trying to follow God, basically as scripture, then why do we do so with EGW?

An abstract meaning of scripture is "scripture</FONT minmax_bound="true"> A statement regarded as authoritative. " In this abstract meaning of scripture, which is basically the root idea behind considering the Bible as scripture, it is the statement being regarded as authoritative. By regarding some of what EGW wrote as authoritative, we are considering her as scripture.

Which is wrong I feel. I guess if you feel God is using you to do so, go ahead. Maybe if I was born 2000 years from now, and EGW was canonical scripture, I would agree. Right now, I am cynical about the long term specialiness even if the work is inspired.

I also think that Mere Christianity is inspired for example, and think that I would consider it more inspired than a lot of what EGW wrote.

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sure, and I have just a bit of clue, but I have the feeling that Steps to Christ was.

OK. And don't mean to interrogate you and hope I haven't left that impression. I'm just curious to learn more about how you view things.

This is a bit off topic, but I wonder if you have any thoughts about which steps we take to get to Christ?

By regarding some of what EGW wrote as authoritative, we are considering her as scripture. Which is wrong I feel.

I have reached the same conclusion.

Right now, I am cynical about the long term specialiness even if the work is inspired. I also think that Mere Christianity is inspired for example, and think that I would consider it more inspired than a lot of what EGW wrote.

I view "inspired" as representing a writing in which God directly presents a concept to the author and has some hand in guiding the written presentation of that concept. I distinguish this concept from "inspirational" which could refer to a larger number of works. However, perhaps you view "inspired" differently than I do. I would view Mere Christianity as "inspirational," but not "inspired." It could be that we're using words a bit differently. Not sure.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

I view "inspired" as representing a writing in which God directly presents a concept to the author and has some hand in guiding the written presentation of that concept. I distinguish this concept from "inspirational" which could refer to a larger number of works. However, perhaps you view "inspired" differently than I do. I would view Mere Christianity as "inspirational," but not "inspired." It could be that we're using words a bit differently. Not sure.

BFA

you assume that the thought whatever it might be will be accurately written down and understood by those who read it.... that is a big assumption...