Some questions for an educated Calvinist

[Caleb Taylor]

Skala,

I don't think Arminians have a problem with limited election (which is to an Armeinian conditional, and limited based on God's foreknowledge.) We make a distinction between election and atonement however. Atonement is for all, but effectively conditional upon our choice in receiving Christ (not works but faith, which Abraham was accredited with, and is opposed to works salvation.) Atonement for all + faith = elect. We are simply attempting to take 1 Tim 4:10 at face value without any twisting of words or reading into it...

"...have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"

But there is also the practical side: If we look at from the perspective that ALL have been atoned for (at least in some sense), the feeling is that God has not really set a limit, rather we set the limit. It gives a more positive outlook in evangelism. So it is more like limited election, limited by us!

 

[lindart]

Calvinists believe in a sovereign God. Part of that sovereign rule is that He orders all things and controls all things to bring to pass His sovereign will. That means that He has ordained that every one of the elect hear the Gospel preached. In other words He sees to it that the elect and the preacher come together at the appointed time which He has determined for that elect soul to hear and believe. Perfect preaching has nothing to do with it. An example would be in Acts 16 where the Spirit wouldn't allow Paul to go into Asia but sent him to Philippi where there was a woman and a jailor that God intended to hear and believe. Acts 16:6

We believe that sinners are depraved not deprived. Sure the unbeliever has choices as do all men. We are not robots but our wills are bound by our natures. But our choices are controlled and ordained by a sovereign God who has determined everything that comes to pass. God controls every influence and circumstance that everyone finds himself in. He controls who you were born to and where, who you come in contact with and every other influence in your life. Therefore He controls the choices you make because He controls those things that influence your choices. He shapes each person to accomplish exactly what He had determined before hand to do. Acts 2:23 is an example of that.

Calvinists do not hold to Pentecostal Perfectionism. We believer that we remain sinners as long as we are in this body of death, Rom. 7:14-25, and until we are given a new body sin remains in us and with us. We believer that all believers are born again and given a new nature that fights against our sin nature daily. Gal. 5:16-17.

You never know what God has in store for you.

Thank you for this beautiful exposition on God's Sovereign Will. I guess there is a bit of Calvinism in my heart, after all.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

Hi Twin.

> "Of course there is a moral improvement so the question is absurd. You presuppose far too much. "

I wasn't presupposing, but just genuinely asking. I have heard of some people who go so far as to be almost antinomian, and I was just wondering if you knew how prevalent (or not) that was among some who may label themselves "Calvinist" even if you think they are not really authentic Calvinists.

Some false "Arminians" likewise go too far and become legalistic, relying on works (in addition to faith rather than through the Holy Spirit's working.)

 

[Caleb Taylor]

Dear Lindart:

He said, "But our choices are controlled and ordained by a sovereign God who has determined everything that comes to pass."

Do you really think that is beautiful? Do we have no real choice in life?

Caleb.

 

[lindart]

Twin 1954's response resonated with what I have come to know during my walk with our Lord for the past 40 years. As I reflect past to my tortuous journey through valleys and mountains, with the choices that I had made and the consequences thereof, I have come to a firm conviction that God was always there with me, irregardless of my level of commitment to Him, and that, through His Sovereign Will in my life, in spite of my choices, which He knew beforehand, has never let go of me!

 

[A New Dawn]

Dear Lindart:

He said, "But our choices are controlled and ordained by a sovereign God who has determined everything that comes to pass."

Do you really think that is beautiful? Do we have no real choice in life?

Caleb.

I believe that you erased everything else he said in order to get to that one phrase that misrepresents the heart of what he said. We do have a choice. But because our will coincides with God's will once He has turned our hearts, it is natural that we will choose what God wills. And I do believe it is beautiful to believe in a God who cares about us so much that He wants us to love what he loves and choose the things he offers to us. How can that not be beautiful?

 

[twin1954]

Dear Twin,

Please don't feel I am getting at you but I would really like a direct answer. Do Calvinist preachers ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times that God WILLS them to?

You aren't getting at me at all. I honestly don't mind trying to answer your questions. I do see that you are not giving my answers the consideration that it takes to see that I have answered your question posed once more in this posed twice. I have answered it directly twice now:
in post #15
Calvinists believe in a sovereign God. Part of that sovereign rule is that He orders all things and controls all things to bring to pass His sovereign will. That means that He has ordained that every one of the elect hear the Gospel preached. In other words He sees to it that the elect and the preacher come together at the appointed time which He has determined for that elect soul to hear and believe.

in post #18
I answered your questions you just aren't grasping the implications of my answers. I will answer directly with a no it isn't possible because of the reasons I gave you in my other answers.


Your question in this post: Do Calvinist preachers ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times that God WILLS them to? The answer once more is a resounding yes. Why? Because God is sovereign and whatever He purposes so shall it come to pass. Isa. 14:24,27

I ask that you actually look up and consider the passages I have given you. So far I get the feeling that you are ignoring much of what I am saying in order to hang on to your presuppositions. Granted, I am not trying to make you a Calvinist, what good would that do you, I am doing my beat to give you answers from the Scriptures. Go back and read my posts again thoughtfully if you want to actually find out what This Calvinist believes. I get the impression that you are seeking to write a paper that has an agenda. All I ask is that you be honest about what we believe.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

I agree with your experience and too have experienced the same. But I think you have not really looked into what was really being said deep down by Twin. On the surface I would agree that Calvinism sounds really great in praising God for his all-sufficiency and work in my own life, however there is still our responsibility to work with God also, even though if we fall God is still there to bring us back at any time. Unfortunately Calvinism minimises that choice we have or even eliminates it completely... Deep down despite some good points, eliminating responsibility is a grave error...

 

[twin1954]

Hi Twin.

> "Of course there is a moral improvement so the question is absurd. You presuppose far too much. "

I wasn't presupposing, but just genuinely asking. I have heard of some people who go so far as to be almost antinomian, and I was just wondering if you knew how prevalent (or not) that was among some who may label themselves "Calvinist" even if you think they are not really authentic Calvinists.

Some false "Arminians" likewise go too far and become legalistic, relying on works (in addition to faith rather than through the Holy Spirit's working.)

I know of no true antinomians among all the Calvinists I have had the pleasure and displeasure to come in contact with over the years. Some here consider me to be antinomian but just as the definition of Hyper is nebulous so is the accusation of antinomian. Reformed folks are normally confessional so if you desire to get a grasp of what they believe read both the Westminster Confession and the 1689 London Baptist confession. Because I disagree with both confessions on the third use of the law I am often called antinomian.

Calvinist has become a very large umbrella that covers a whole host of differing views today. I am not technically a Calvinist for I am neither Presbyterian nor Reformed in my theology. I am very close to both groups in many things such as a Baptist covenant theology and the Doctrines of Grace. Where I differ is important to both them and me but I call myself a Calvinist because I fit under the umbrella about as close as one can get without actually being a technical Calvinist. Also it saves a whole lot of time trying to explain what I disagree with them on and where I stand. In the broad sense of the label I am a Calvinist and am accepted by all but the very technically minded as one.

You will find that Calvinists tend for the most part to be very well read and very knowledgeable of the Scriptures.

 

[twin1954]

Twin 1954's response resonated with what I have come to know during my walk with our Lord for the past 40 years. As I reflect past to my tortuous journey through valleys and mountains, with the choices that I had made and the consequences thereof, I have come to a firm conviction that God was always there with me, irregardless of my level of commitment to Him, and that, through His Sovereign Will in my life, in spite of my choices, which He knew beforehand, has never let go of me!

I am truly humbled to be used of The Great God and Savior in such a way.

 

[twin1954]

I agree with your experience and too have experienced the same. But I think you have not really looked into what was really being said deep down by Twin. On the surface I would agree that Calvinism sounds really great in praising God for his all-sufficiency and work in my own life, however there is still our responsibility to work with God also, even though if we fall God is still there to bring us back at any time. Unfortunately Calvinism minimises that choice we have or even eliminates it completely... Deep down despite some good points, eliminating responsibility is a grave error...

There you go presupposing again. Calvinism in no way diminishes or eliminates human responsibility. You presuppose that our responsibility is founded in our wills and choices but you are mistaken. Our responsibility is founded in the fact that we were created moral creatures and in the fact that God as our Creator has the right and authority to demand of us what He will without regard to ability. We are responsible to God as moral creatures because we know better. We all are born with an innate understanding of right and wrong. Rom. 2:14,15 The beasts have no such knowledge. A cat who eats her young feels no remorse nor guilt because of it for it is not a moral creature. But man, unless he is a sociopath, has a conscience that pricks him when he does what is wrong. He can't help himself from doing wrong but it still bothers him that he does. So responsibility isn't about ability but about our moral nature.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

>>>And I do believe it is beautiful to believe in a God who cares about us so much that He wants us to love what he loves and choose the things he offers to us. How can that not be beautiful?

Yes that is beautiful. It is a good point in the gospel, but it really is not what Arminians are against. We all agree with that. What we are really discussing is the role we have in faith in RESPONSE to God's grace calling us too him.

For example, let me share my own testimony:

I was born in a Christian family. Later on my father left Christianity (doubtless there will be a debate as to whether he was truly saved, but that is not the point). I am mentioning it because I want people to see it was my own choice to follow the Lord, and I do honour him for the initial input of general Christian knowledge he put into my life...
More than 20 years ago, as a teenager, I came (independently) under a general conviction of sin, and a sense of lack of desire for God.. As I confessed this to God, I felt he accepted me. Prior to this I already believed that Jesus dies for our sins, but I did not have any personal experience or relationship with the Lord. However, I confessed my lack of desire for God and to worship Him. As I did this I immediately felt my heart change and was had an increasing desire for God through his Spirit working in me at the time. I felt love for God (through the Holy Spirit) and joy... After this, sometime later, I came under further convictions of sin, such as an early experience of feeling a bit of hate toward my sister for saying things against me, and as I came before God in prayer and worked this this through WITH Him, I once again felt my heart change...

Christianity is a partnership with God, not a one-time experience, but both God and we have our parts to play. On the surface Calvinism glorifies God's part, which is great, I acknowledge that. However at the same time it diminishes our role in relationship with God, and that is the bad, and unacceptable part...

Please understand where I am coming from...

Caleb

 

[twin1954]

>>>And I do believe it is beautiful to believe in a God who cares about us so much that He wants us to love what he loves and choose the things he offers to us. How can that not be beautiful?

Yes that is beautiful. It is a good point in the gospel, but it really is not what Arminians are against. We all agree with that. What we are really discussing is the role we have in faith in RESPONSE to God's grace calling us too him.

For example, let me share my own testimony:

I was born in a Christian family. Later on my father left Christianity (doubtless there will be a debate as to whether he was truly saved, but that is not the point). I am mentioning it because I want people to see it was my own choice to follow the Lord, and I do honour him for the initial input of general Christian knowledge he put into my life...
More than 20 years ago, as a teenager, I came (independently) under a general conviction of sin, and a sense of lack of desire for God.. As I confessed this to God, I felt he accepted me. Prior to this I already believed that Jesus dies for our sins, but I did not have any personal experience or relationship with the Lord. However, I confessed my lack of desire for God and to worship Him. As I did this I immediately felt my heart change and was had an increasing desire for God through his Spirit working in me at the time. I felt love for God (through the Holy Spirit) and joy... After this, sometime later, I came under further convictions of sin, such as an early experience of feeling a bit of hate toward my sister for saying things against me, and as I came before God in prayer and worked this this through WITH Him, I once again felt my heart change...

Christianity is a partnership with God, not a one-time experience, but both God and we have our parts to play. On the surface Calvinism glorifies God's part, which is great, I acknowledge that. However at the same time it diminishes our role in relationship with God, and that is the bad, and unacceptable part...

Please understand where I am coming from...

Caleb

What you describe is semi-Pelagian if not outright Pelagian theology which was pronounced as heresy hundreds of years ago. Yes Calvinists deny that man cooperates with God but there is a reason for that. We recognize what out natures are, sinners and God-hating rebels, and understand that if any of salvation depends on us we are all damned. Salvation is all of grace and all of God from start to finish. If that were not the case none of us would ever be saved. Moreover the reason you cant accept the truth that we have no part to play in our salvation is the fact that you don't really want to give up control. You want to stick out your chest, so to speak, and be your own savior. Now I am using such language so you can see not as an insult. I didn't get myself saved and I do not keep myself saved. I do rest in the complete and finished work of Christ in my place and now am free to live and work for Him because I am no longer under the bondage of having to do something.


I do understand where you are coming from. It is the same place that nearly all Calvinists started.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

>>>Your question in this post: Do Calvinist preachers ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times that God WILLS them to? The answer once more is a resounding yes. Why? Because God is sovereign and whatever He purposes so shall it come to pass. Isa. 14:24,27

Twin, I have well considered the rest of what you have written and it is nothing new to me. I already know that Calvinists believe everything including conversion etc. are controlled by God.

Now that I have received a clear, "Yes", Calvinists believe that they ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times as God wills, I can proceed further in my argument...

If Calvinists are always doing the will of God in preaching, are they then doing the will of God in other areas of their life at all times. I say this because as you said Calvinists do not believe in perfectionism earlier. But again I need a clear answer. So you admit Calvinists are perfect in preaching the right number of times when they should, but are they perfect in all other ways in regards to sin for example? I want to follow this train of thought through...

Many thanks...

Caleb.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

There you go presupposing again. Calvinism in no way diminishes or eliminates human responsibility. You presuppose that our responsibility is founded in our wills and choices but you are mistaken. Our responsibility is founded in the fact that we were created moral creatures and in the fact that God as our Creator has the right and authority to demand of us what He will without regard to ability. We are responsible to God as moral creatures because we know better. We all are born with an innate understanding of right and wrong. Rom. 2:14,15 The beasts have no such knowledge. A cat who eats her young feels no remorse nor guilt because of it for it is not a moral creature. But man, unless he is a sociopath, has a conscience that pricks him when he does what is wrong. He can't help himself from doing wrong but it still bothers him that he does. So responsibility isn't about ability but about our moral nature.

Dear Twin,

I am not presupposing. I am simply bring the full weight of your previous statements on the sovereignty of God to bear upon the subject of our responsibility of faith toward God, which in turn changes our nature. I am talking about our bit toward that, and Calvinists DO diminish that do they not? Otherwise why are we even discussing the topic at all?

 

[Caleb Taylor]

...you don't really want to give up control...

Twin, if you read my testimony, you would have realised that I DID give up control, that was my part in prayer to God, in accepting His work in my life... Twin, that is ALL that I mean by human responsibility, vis. to give up control to God. It is still our CHOICE to do that!

As far as Pelagainism goes, he was probably misrepresented by Augustine.. We really don' t know... Can we rely on just the writings of his opponent, in order to get a true grasp on what he really believed. I would would say, yes, I am semi-Pelagian, maybe even Pelagian, but we don't really know what he believed. I am simply saying we have a duty to surrender our lives to God's control, the whole thing just doesn't happen automatically or sovereignly but God...

Further, can we really trust Augustine? I think we need to place more emphasis on the writers who lived at a time of persecution in the Church, as a true test of their perseverance and the legitimacy of their faith... When the Church came into control of the state, human motives began to get in control increasingly until the final need for the reformation centuries later...

 

[twin1954]

>>>Your question in this post: Do Calvinist preachers ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times that God WILLS them to? The answer once more is a resounding yes. Why? Because God is sovereign and whatever He purposes so shall it come to pass. Isa. 14:24,27

Twin, I have well considered the rest of what you have written and it is nothing new to me. I already know that Calvinists believe everything including conversion etc. are controlled by God.

Now that I have received a clear, "Yes", Calvinists believe that they ALWAYS preach the gospel as many times as God wills, I can proceed further in my argument...

If Calvinists are always doing the will of God in preaching, are they then doing the will of God in other areas of their life at all times. I say this because as you said Calvinists do not believe in perfectionism earlier. But again I need a clear answer. So you admit Calvinists are perfect in preaching the right number of times when they should, but are they perfect in all other ways in regards to sin for example? I want to follow this train of thought through...

Many thanks...

Caleb.

The direct answer is yes and no. Yes we do exactly as God has determined beforehand to be done and no we do not always follow what He has revealed as righteous in the Law. We sin but God has perfect control over that sin and uses it for His purposes. Some Scriptural example:

The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
(Pro 16:1)

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
(Pro 16:4)

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
(Pro 16:9)

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
(Pro 16:33)


The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
(Pro 21:1)

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
(Isa 14:24)


LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
(Isa 26:12)

And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
(Dan 4:34-35)



While we do the will of God fulfilling His purpose in us and for us we do so because of our own desires and intents. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the clearest Bible example:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Act 2:22-23)

While the Israelites committed the worst of sins by crucifying the Lord of Glory they did it exactly as God had determined to be done by them down to fulfilling every single prophecy concerning His death.

And again we see it in Joseph's answer to his brothers:

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.
(Gen 50:20-21)

 

[twin1954]

Dear Twin,

I am not presupposing. I am simply bring the full weight of your previous statements on the sovereignty of God to bear upon the subject of our responsibility of faith toward God, which in turn changes our nature. I am talking about our bit toward that, and Calvinists DO diminish that do they not? Otherwise why are we even discussing the topic at all?

You think that our faith changes our nature but it is actually the other way around. We believe because we have already been changed by God in the new birth. Faith follows regeneration not the opposite. You cannot believe until your eyes and ears are opened. We are described in Eph. 2 and Col. 2 as being dead in sin and only God can raises a dead man to life. Until life is in you there can be no faith.

Calvinists do not diminish the necessity or value of faith we simply understand that even our faith is a gift from God. Eph. 2:8, Heb. 12:2

 

[A New Dawn]

>>>And I do believe it is beautiful to believe in a God who cares about us so much that He wants us to love what he loves and choose the things he offers to us. How can that not be beautiful?

Yes that is beautiful. It is a good point in the gospel, but it really is not what Arminians are against. We all agree with that. What we are really discussing is the role we have in faith in RESPONSE to God's grace calling us too him.

For example, let me share my own testimony:

I was born in a Christian family. Later on my father left Christianity (doubtless there will be a debate as to whether he was truly saved, but that is not the point). I am mentioning it because I want people to see it was my own choice to follow the Lord, and I do honour him for the initial input of general Christian knowledge he put into my life...
More than 20 years ago, as a teenager, I came (independently) under a general conviction of sin, and a sense of lack of desire for God.. As I confessed this to God, I felt he accepted me. Prior to this I already believed that Jesus dies for our sins, but I did not have any personal experience or relationship with the Lord. However, I confessed my lack of desire for God and to worship Him. As I did this I immediately felt my heart change and was had an increasing desire for God through his Spirit working in me at the time. I felt love for God (through the Holy Spirit) and joy... After this, sometime later, I came under further convictions of sin, such as an early experience of feeling a bit of hate toward my sister for saying things against me, and as I came before God in prayer and worked this this through WITH Him, I once again felt my heart change...

Christianity is a partnership with God, not a one-time experience, but both God and we have our parts to play. On the surface Calvinism glorifies God's part, which is great, I acknowledge that. However at the same time it diminishes our role in relationship with God, and that is the bad, and unacceptable part...

Please understand where I am coming from...

Caleb

But my experience is in counterpoint to yours.

I was raised in a Christian family but over time, in my late teens, had moved away from God. I traveled in circles where I did lots and lots of really bad things. I ended up married to someone who beat me, whom I left on my 21st birthday. I no longer believed in God, but out of respect for my parents (I had moved back into their home) I went to church with them. I was asked to be a chaperone at a church retreat, which I turned down flatly. Several weeks later, I was asked again, and was told that if they couldn't find chaperones they would have to cancel the retreat. I went because I felt guilted into it. At that retreat, at a time in my life when I couldn't have been further away from God, and certainly not looking for him, God reached down and turned my heart to Himself. That was 37 years ago. Since that time, God has not hesitated to bring me back to Himself when I'd start to wander, and guided me, intimately, to the truth I wanted to deny for many years.

I will add that the church I attended was very arminian in nature, teaching free agency (free will), which conflicted heavily with my personal testimony, but still I clung to that belief till I was left with nothing but the Bible to read, which spoke to me, loudly and clearly, of God being the author and finisher of our faith, of Christ when he said "It is finished", leaving me with no option but to believe that HE grants me faith, HE saves me and HE keeps me safe so that nothing can ever separate me from him. He does it all.

There is still a way Calvinism can be expressed in your testimony. There is not a way arminianism can be expressed in mine.

 

[twin1954]

Twin, if you read my testimony, you would have realised that I DID give up control, that was my part in prayer to God, in accepting His work in my life... Twin, that is ALL that I mean by human responsibility, vis. to give up control to God. It is still our CHOICE to do that!

I know that is how you perceive it and I do understand why and how you hold that belief. But in reality, now honestly think about it, if it is ultimately up to you to do your part then you actually save yourself and are in control. If God does everything except one small thing which He leaves up to you and you cannot be saved unless you do it then you are in control not God and you save yourself. There simply is no way around that logic.

As far as Pelagainism goes, he was probably misrepresented by Augustine.. We really don' t know... Can we rely on just the writings of his opponent, in order to get a true grasp on what he really believed. I would would say, yes, I am semi-Pelagian, maybe even Pelagian, but we don't really know what he believed. I am simply saying we have a duty to surrender our lives to God's control, the whole thing just doesn't happen automatically or sovereignly but God...

Further, can we really trust Augustine? I think we need to place more emphasis on the writers who lived at a time of persecution in the Church, as a true test of their perseverance and the legitimacy of their faith... When the Church came into control of the state, human motives began to get in control increasingly until the final need for the reformation centuries later...

I don't make excuses for what I believe and I don't expect you to either. I like the fact that you admit what you are but if you are going to come in our home with questions expect your beliefs to be challenged. This is getting close to being a debate, which I am not interested in participating in, but as long as we can keep it civil and you asking and me answering I will continue.