Some questions for an educated Calvinist

[hedrick]

I should note that the sovereignty of God isn't the only possible motivation for Calvinist theology. A well-known Calvin scholar, after looking at all his writings (not just the Institutes) concluded that his primary motivation was pastoral. He thought it was important to see everything as coming from the hand of God, even the difficult things.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

Dear A New Dawn,

Let me explain further my beliefs, and why I am against Calvinism...

I, and some Arminians believe: First it ALL starts with God. God gives us grace. He gives us grace as his Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. This happens to the whole world. God gives more grace to some people and less to others. It's all about a kind of tug of war, God pulling us (weakly, not full strength) to ourselves, and we either give in or fight his drawing of Himself to us. It ALWAYS starts with Him. In times of revival in the past such as under Jonathan Edwards or Charles Finney, that drawing from God was very very strong and hard to resist, however God never forced anyone. If a person is being prayed for day and night by a strong Christian, the force of God will be quite strong but never strong enough as to take over our wills completely. We must yield to Him ultimately. Remember the parable of the talents... some received more and increased it (their choice!, they increased the grace of God!), whereas the one who received little, did nothing (likewise their choice, even though they had little grace to go on, the voice of God drawing them was faint.) In fact the God could remove his voice to be so faint that hardly anyone would be saved at all, yet he would still hold us accountable for not responding to his grace. Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you? You would still have been accountable before God, because your formally rejected him. The same goes for myself and all of us! But God gave us more grace, more drawing of Himself, in His kindness, and we responded out of our own free-will. He did not make our final decision as well... Jesus does not condemn anyone because of sin any more as he came to save. However our rejection of Him will condemn us on the last day when we die (John 12:48) if we did not at some point accept Him.

Since that time, God has not hesitated to bring me back to Himself when I'd start to wander, and guided me, intimately, to the truth I wanted to deny for many years.

This was the grace of God! I agree. Praise God!

of God being the author and finisher of our faith, of Christ when he said "It is finished", leaving me with no option but to believe that HE grants me faith, HE saves me and HE keeps me safe so that nothing can ever separate me from him. He does it all.

God kept at you, kept on your case. But it was your final decision to respond. Remember the parable of the talents...

There is still a way Calvinism can be expressed in your testimony.

No, there is not, because it rules out the final response to God's grace that I testified to. We work together WITH God!...

There is not a way arminianism can be expressed in mine.

Yes there is! God kept on your case, until you finally responded to His grace out of your own free-will... through faith in Him...

 

[Caleb Taylor]

The direct answer is yes and no. Yes we do exactly as God has determined beforehand to be done and no we do not always follow what He has revealed as righteous in the Law. We sin but God has perfect control over that sin and uses it for His purposes.

So, correct me if I am wrong: God predetermines sin (sometimes) in the converted, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted?

I am trying to clarify... Many thanks...

 

[twin1954]

So, correct me if I am wrong: God predetermines sin (sometimes) in the converted, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted?

I am trying to clarify... Many thanks...

No God predetermines everything all the time.

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
(Psa 76:10)


God is in absolute, perfect and wise control of everything that happens. If in His wise council it doesn't bring His purpose to glorify Himself and show mercy and grace to His elect then He restrains it. Nothing comes to pass that He hasn't determined to either bring about directly or allow in His sovereign wisdom. Anything less than an absolutely sovereign God is no god at all.

 

[twin1954]

Dear A New Dawn,

Let me explain further my beliefs, and why I am against Calvinism...

I, and some Arminians believe: First it ALL starts with God. God gives us grace. He gives us grace as his Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. This happens to the whole world. God gives more grace to some people and less to others. It's all about a kind of tug of war, God pulling us (weakly, not full strength) to ourselves, and we either give in or fight his drawing of Himself to us. It ALWAYS starts with Him. In times of revival in the past such as under Jonathan Edwards or Charles Finney, that drawing from God was very very strong and hard to resist, however God never forced anyone. If a person is being prayed for day and night by a strong Christian, the force of God will be quite strong but never strong enough as to take over our wills completely. We must yield to Him ultimately. Remember the parable of the talents... some received more and increased it (their choice!, they increased the grace of God!), whereas the one who received little, did nothing (likewise their choice, even though they had little grace to go on, the voice of God drawing them was faint.) In fact the God could remove his voice to be so faint that hardly anyone would be saved at all, yet he would still hold us accountable for not responding to his grace. Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you? You would still have been accountable before God, because your formally rejected him. The same goes for myself and all of us! But God gave us more grace, more drawing of Himself, in His kindness, and we responded out of our own free-will. He did not make our final decision as well... Jesus does not condemn anyone because of sin any more as he came to save. However our rejection of Him will condemn us on the last day when we die (John 12:48) if we did not at some point accept Him.



This was the grace of God! I agree. Praise God!



God kept at you, kept on your case. But it was your final decision to respond. Remember the parable of the talents...



No, there is not, because it rules out the final response to God's grace that I testified to. We work together WITH God!...



Yes there is! God kept on your case, until you finally responded to His grace out of your own free-will... through faith in Him...

What you espouse here is Wesleyan Arminianism. He called it prevenient grace. The problem with it is that you still have the logical conclusion that you save yourself and are in control. God starts it but you finish it. More than that you seem to think you can twist God's arm with prayer. Add to that the difficulty that you run into when you say that God doesn't judge you for your sin. That simply isn't Scriptural. I know that the answer you think is that He judges for unbelief but is not unbelief a sin that Christ died for? If He didn't then you are left with the result that Christ didn't actually cover all your sin.

 

[twin1954]

BTW, I do want to note that I do not speak for all Calvinists. There are differing views on a lot of issues among Calvinists but for the most part I don't think that anything I have said is not commonly held among them.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

No God predetermines everything all the time.

So, God predetermines whatever a converted person does, be it sin or anything good, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted, and never predetermines a lack of preaching from the converted?

(We are getting there, Soon I will have an affirmation that I have grasped your essence...)

Thanks.

 

[Caleb Taylor]

More than that you seem to think you can twist God's arm with prayer.

We are the light of the world. We are Christ's Ambassadors here. We have been given authority over the enemy. A righteous man's prayer is powerful and effective. This is not twisting God's arm. This is absolutely scriptural. I think you know the verses I am referring to. Otherwise I will post them... What you are saying is a major major problem with Calvinism. God's Will is simplyly NOT done on earth. Sin is NOT the Will of God. Granted, he does permit it, under perhaps his "permissive will", but it is not his ultimate will. His will is not done on earth as it is in heaven. That is what we are to pray for. Calvinism is so unscriptural. I could go on and on and doubtless there would be a war on scriptures which would never end... However at the moment I am just trying to clarify things, as Calvinism appears extremely inconsistent to me. Hyper-Calvinism seems much more consistent!

Add to that the difficulty that you run into when you say that God doesn't judge you for your sin. That simply isn't Scriptural.

Yes it is!

John 3:17

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 12:47-48

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

So, we can see that salvation/judgement is based on faith (accepting Jesus) alone. Of course a changed heart will result from faith...

God's drawing -> faith -> works

...is not unbelief a sin that Christ died for?

Jesus did not die for our lack of belief. The work of the cross just reversed the sin of Adam. I hesitate to use the word "just" as it was a very great work including ALL sin which is immense, but it did not include faith in Jesus, as that was not a "sin" of Adam. In fact faith in Jesus was not available to Adam...

 

[A New Dawn]

Dear A New Dawn,

Let me explain further my beliefs, and why I am against Calvinism...

I, and some Arminians believe: First it ALL starts with God. God gives us grace. He gives us grace as his Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. This happens to the whole world. God gives more grace to some people and less to others. It's all about a kind of tug of war, God pulling us (weakly, not full strength) to ourselves, and we either give in or fight his drawing of Himself to us. It ALWAYS starts with Him. In times of revival in the past such as under Jonathan Edwards or Charles Finney, that drawing from God was very very strong and hard to resist, however God never forced anyone. If a person is being prayed for day and night by a strong Christian, the force of God will be quite strong but never strong enough as to take over our wills completely. We must yield to Him ultimately. Remember the parable of the talents... some received more and increased it (their choice!, they increased the grace of God!), whereas the one who received little, did nothing (likewise their choice, even though they had little grace to go on, the voice of God drawing them was faint.) In fact the God could remove his voice to be so faint that hardly anyone would be saved at all, yet he would still hold us accountable for not responding to his grace. Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you? You would still have been accountable before God, because your formally rejected him. The same goes for myself and all of us! But God gave us more grace, more drawing of Himself, in His kindness, and we responded out of our own free-will. He did not make our final decision as well... Jesus does not condemn anyone because of sin any more as he came to save. However our rejection of Him will condemn us on the last day when we die (John 12:48) if we did not at some point accept Him.



This was the grace of God! I agree. Praise God!



God kept at you, kept on your case. But it was your final decision to respond. Remember the parable of the talents...



No, there is not, because it rules out the final response to God's grace that I testified to. We work together WITH God!...



Yes there is! God kept on your case, until you finally responded to His grace out of your own free-will... through faith in Him...

Arminianism insists that I work together with God and respond with faith. That is not what happened. I was not working together with God. I was walking away from Him and not seeking him. I wanted nothing to do with God. God turned my heart to himself at a time when I had no interest in him. You just can't make that into what you want it to be. There is no way to squeeze a "working together" scenario into what happened.

However, in your testimony you said

More than 20 years ago, as a teenager, I came (independently) under a general conviction of sin, and a sense of lack of desire for God.. As I confessed this to God, I felt he accepted me.

Why do you assume that it was "independently"? What makes you think that it was not God leading you to that conviction. It seems rather arrogant that you feel that you, alone, convicted yourself and turned to God. I'd say it was God who convicted you at a time when HE knew you would respond to the call and dragged you to himself. You responded positively because HE had already been there, turning your heart and guiding you. Because you were already His, because your will aligned with His you chose to follow. And although it was a choice, you were powerless to do otherwise.

Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you?

So you are suggesting that God does not know will happen to his own creation? That He cannot see from beginning to end? God knows all. God is intimately involved in our lives. To suggest otherwise is not even a Christian thought. It devolves to deism.

 

[twin1954]

So, God predetermines whatever a converted person does, be it sin or anything good, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted, and never predetermines a lack of preaching from the converted?

Of course. I am afraid I don't get what you intend by perfect preaching I suppose. You seem to be using it as though it were something special. The only perfect preaching is that which is done by the Spirit through the faulty mind and mouth of a man.

(We are getting there, Soon I will have an affirmation that I have grasped your essence...)

Thanks.[/QUOTE]I suspected that you were baiting a trap all along but hoped it wasn't the case. You seem to confirm that suspicion here. The simple truth is that until you are taken hold of by the Doctrines of Grace you will never grasp the essence of them. Until you see the beauty and pure grace of God in them you cannot grasp the essence of them. You can pretend and imagine that you do but if you ever do you will yourself be a Calvinist.

 

[twin1954]

We are the light of the world. We are Christ's Ambassadors here. We have been given authority over the enemy. A righteous man's prayer is powerful and effective. This is not twisting God's arm. This is absolutely scriptural. I think you know the verses I am referring to. Otherwise I will post them... What you are saying is a major major problem with Calvinism. God's Will is simplyly NOT done on earth. Sin is NOT the Will of God. Granted, he does permit it, under perhaps his "permissive will", but it is not his ultimate will. His will is not done on earth as it is in heaven. That is what we are to pray for. Calvinism is so unscriptural. I could go on and on and doubtless there would be a war on scriptures which would never end... However at the moment I am just trying to clarify things, as Calvinism appears extremely inconsistent to me. Hyper-Calvinism seems much more consistent!



Yes it is!

John 3:17

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 12:47-48

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

So, we can see that salvation/judgement is based on faith (accepting Jesus) alone. Of course a changed heart will result from faith...

God's drawing -> faith -> works


Jesus did not die for our lack of belief. The work of the cross just reversed the sin of Adam. I hesitate to use the word "just" as it was a very great work including ALL sin which is immense, but it did not include faith in Jesus, as that was not a "sin" of Adam. In fact faith in Jesus was not available to Adam...

For all this you are still stuck with the dilemma of you saving yourself and being in control in your system of theology. When you can answer that I will answer the rest of the post.

 

[Skala]

Skala,

I don't think Arminians have a problem with limited election (which is to an Armeinian conditional, and limited based on God's foreknowledge.) We make a distinction between election and atonement however. Atonement is for all, but effectively conditional upon our choice in receiving Christ (not works but faith, which Abraham was accredited with, and is opposed to works salvation.) Atonement for all + faith = elect. We are simply attempting to take 1 Tim 4:10 at face value without any twisting of words or reading into it...

"...have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"

But there is also the practical side: If we look at from the perspective that ALL have been atoned for (at least in some sense), the feeling is that God has not really set a limit, rather we set the limit. It gives a more positive outlook in evangelism. So it is more like limited election, limited by us!

I don't think you understood my argument. Please re-read it. I wasn't talking about limited election. I was arguing that since even in Arminianism some people are born into the world as the elect, it makes perfect sense that Christ would come to make perfect atonement for those people (and those people only)

Why is he atoning for the non-elect, in Arminianism? What is he trying to accomplish?

 

[Skala]

Dear Lindart:

He said, "But our choices are controlled and ordained by a sovereign God who has determined everything that comes to pass."

Do you really think that is beautiful? Do we have no real choice in life?

Caleb.

I think your mistake, Caleb, is thinking in "either/or" terms.

Just because God decrees whatsoever comes to pass does not mean "you have no choice". You do choose. You choose (willingly) to do whatever God has decreed. It's not "either/or" but "Both/and".

God predestined wicked men to murder Christ (Acts 4:27-28) yet nobody would say that they didn't willingly choose to do it.

This, I think, is a mystery that nobody can fully understand. God works in ways we cannot comprehend. We know that God predestined Christ's murder at the hands of wicked men, but we also know those men willingly chose to murder Christ because of selfish and sinful reasons.

We must believe what the Bible says, whether or not we can reconcile it it with our finite mind. To reject this truth is to put your own understanding as the standard and litmus test of whatever is true or not.

But the Bible teaches both 1) God is sovereign 2) Men make choices and are held accountable for those choices.

Another example is Josephs' brothers. They sold him into slavery, but Joseph said it was God's plan that they did so. ("It was not you who sent me here, but God") Nevertheless we know that the brothers did so willingly, for selfish and evil reasons. Yet God's reasons for decreeing the act were for good reasons: "To save many lives"

 

[Caleb Taylor]

Why do you assume that it was "independently"?

I was talking of my decision independent of being raised in a Christian family, not independent of God, sorry for the confusion.

What makes you think that it was not God leading you to that conviction.

It was God leading me to the conviction.

I'd say it was God who convicted you at a time when HE knew you would respond to the call and dragged you to himself.

No, God sends His rain on the just and the unjust. As most of the OT verses have a spiritual interpretation as types for the Kingdom, I believe this also means He sends His grace, voice (even if faint) to all people (Rom 10:17-18). It was not because He knew I would respond. That is bad theology. He gives His grace to respond to ALL people regardless (some more and some less, but not depending on their goodness)... Otherwise His grace is based on our goodness (or our predetermined goodness).

And although it was a choice, you were powerless to do otherwise.

I have got to say that is non-sense. God would not create a world full of robots who are powerless to choose. If you were God would you want that? He may as well make the rocks cry out, and forget about making humanity at all! Think about it...

You must take the scriptures at face value: What impression was Paul trying to give when he wrote:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

What was his tone as he said that? Was it predestination? I think not...

 

[Caleb Taylor]

I was arguing that since even in Arminianism some people are born into the world as the elect, it makes perfect sense that Christ would come to make perfect atonement for those people (and those people only).

The unsaved need to know they have a choice; it is not set in stone... Even if the Father knew from the beginning who would be saved in the end, he would not want to give the impression that we have no choice in the matter, thus he sent His Son to die for all (John 3:16)

Why is he atoning for the non-elect, in Arminianism? What is he trying to accomplish?

To give the right impression, that the "elect" (though known from eternity), are chosen because of a common sacrifice/grace for all, and their OWN acceptance of that sacrifice and grace. God would not be giving the right impression (and thus an excuse for the unrepentant), if it looked like he had pre-selected people...

 

[A New Dawn]

No, God sends His rain on the just and the unjust. As most of the OT verses have a spiritual interpretation as types for the Kingdom, I believe this also means He sends His grace, voice (even if faint) to all people (Rom 10:17-18). It was not because He knew I would respond. That is bad theology. He gives His grace to respond to ALL people regardless (some more and some less, but not depending on their goodness)... Otherwise His grace is based on our goodness (or our predetermined goodness).

The general call goes out to everyone. Only those with ears to hear will hear. And because He did give you ears to hear, He did know you would respond.

I have got to say that is non-sense. God would not create a world full of robots who are powerless to choose. If you were God would you want that? He may as well make the rocks cry out, and forget about making humanity at all! Think about it...

You must take the scriptures at face value: What impression was Paul trying to give when he wrote:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

What was his tone as he said that? Was it predestination? I think not...

Paul was talking about the day of wrath. What does this have to do with anything we are talking about?

 

[Caleb Taylor]

But the Bible teaches both 1) God is sovereign 2) Men make choices and are held accountable for those choices.

That's not the impression I have got from some of the others I have being discussing with here... Some seem to think God forces us (or turns us etc.) so that "he gets all the glory" himself, as it is not our decision. (Not that I am against glorifying God for His grace and sacrifice.) But what you are saying seems a little different - the others are very much one-eyed on the sovereignty of God aspect...

I really think the two aspects cannot be taken completely together. If it is our decision, then that is Armenian. The main point of Arminianism is that God does not predetermine things as set in stone... It is our own decision to accept Christ or not, and although God wills it, his "will" is not generally done. His "permissive will" is done, yes, granted, but His "will" as stated in the bible is not done: We are to pray "Your kingdom come, Your WILL be done..."

The kind of "sovereignty" you are talking about is more like the permissive will of God is it not? God permits sin, and is sovereign over it (in foreknowledge only, and final judgement), yet his "will" is not done as stated in the bible: sin is not His Will -

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

If God does not control/cause sin, how can he then force/cause people to resist it?

 

[Caleb Taylor]

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

We are talking about our decision to reject or accept the truth are we not?

 

[Caleb Taylor]

I'd say it was God who convicted you at a time when HE knew you would respond to the call and dragged you to himself.

So does God hold back from people when He knows they will not respond?

How does that explain the parable of the talents where God gave a single talent to one person who did not do anything with it? (Matt 25:18)

 

[Caleb Taylor]

For all this you are still stuck with the dilemma of you saving yourself and being in control in your system of theology. When you can answer that I will answer the rest of the post.

Calvinism is so contradictory - Am I then being stubborn in refusing to accept God's sovereignty? Yet then, does not this very stubbornness itself portray my own choice? Or is God sovereignly, at least for the moment, making me stubborn?

God is not the author of sin, so He could not be making me stubborn (James 1.13-14)