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Some Pragmatism

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by mark46, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    FIRST
    There is no reason for Democrats to even talk to those who tried to overthrow the US government. That includes the two senators and over 100 congress men and women.
    This also includes anyone who is directly involved in the January 6th attack, specifically those who allowed their staff to give the traitors tours of the capitol the day before.

    These people are an issue for law enforcement and the voters.
    ==========================================
    WHICH REPUBLICANS DOES BIDEN NEED TO ACCOMPLISH HIS GOALS FOR THE FIRST 100 DAYS
    The answer is "none". Almost everything important for the first 100 days involves the follow-up to the Executive Orders and further personnel and policy decisions.

    The ONLY issue where Republicans could certainly help is on stimulus/COVID legislation. However, even this can be accomplished with zero Republican votes.
    =====================
    WORST CASE
    We have a 2009 McConnell opposing everything. This is already not the case with regard to approving appointments. These votes haven't been close. However, if a compromise can't be reached and Biden acts alone, we will move to 2009 politics.

    MIDDLE CASE
    There is a small stimulus/COVID package passed and nothing else for many months, while the Democrats and Republicans decide their futures. In order to pass other legislation, Biden needs 10 Republican votes or to repeal the filibuster. Neither may be possible.

    BEST CASE
    There is a small stimulus/COVID package passed. AND, work begins in the committees on lots of other legislation. Basically, a group of 15 Republicans would join with 15 Democrats to negotiate on these new laws. Immigration is Biden's first priority here (after the stimulus package).

    IN NO CASE
    is it necessary or desirable to negotiate with Cruz and the House wingnuts.

    THE MAJOR DECISIONS

    1) What will McConnell do? How much power does he have? If he has 15 that will follow him, he can get a lot passed for the country that will also benefit those senators.

    2) What will the Democratic leadership do if McConnell doesn't give them almost everything they request. Do the Democrats take the view of the left and push their agenda and refuse to work with Republicans on any meaningful compromise?

    MY HOPE
    is that McConnell can get 15 Republicans to commit to his leadership. Unfortunately, this could cause him to lose his title. I would expect Biden to insist on compromise and basically ignore the left within his party in order to pass legislation.

    It is fine for the Senate to take up leftist legislation passed in the House. They deserve a vote. But, lets be clear, all but compromise legislation would be voted down.
     
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  2. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    I wouldn't accuse the republicans who called the electoral college votes on 6th January into question as people who "tried to overthrow the US government". After all, 4 years ago, the democrats tried the same shenanigans against Trump. Some of them probably still serve.
     
  3. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    I also wouldn't advise the democrats to go for too much compromise. If they serve their voters the same old moderate-conservative stuff as always, they will loose greatly. They will just look weak and as the helpers of the republicans, after the voters voted them into power. That stuff doesn't energise voters in the mid-term, while the republicans will have the energy to "take back the country" and, of course "own the libs".
     
  4. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You seem to have you won set of alternative facts

    Please list all the court cases from 2016 and 2017 after the election.
    Please list all the appeals for states not to certify the vote.
     
  5. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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  6. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You seem to think that passes lots of "progressive" bills in the House, as they did last time and have them all defeated in the Senate is the path to Democratic victory in 2022. I disagree.

    I think that compromising with a dozen Republicans to pass legislation will help the Democrats. Such bills include immigration, health care, DACA specifically, infrastructure, and criminal justice.

    In 2022, the economy will likely be in excellent shape, presuming an effective fight against COVID. Even a couple major laws in addition to the stimulus would greatly help Democrats. It would ALSO help Senate Republicans who are up for re-election.
     
  7. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    Republicans are better at spinning things and directing the flow of public opinion. If the democrats compromise with the republicans and give too much away, the republicans will parade that around as a victory and make the democratic party look weak. They'll also work at astroturfing, giving the impression that the democratic party abandoned its own voters.
     
  8. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

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    A fair amount will depend on what President Trump does with his “retirement”.
    If he goes out and whips up the GOP base, there’ll be little need for McConnell to compromise.
    But if the former Chief Executive begins a new party, the GOP will be then confronted with a “two-front war” and compromise will be one of the only avenues to retain what power they hold.
     
  9. stevil

    stevil Godless and without morals

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    That never happened though. Hillary conceded the morning after election night.
    Trump never conceded.

    Both situations were very different.
     
  10. stevil

    stevil Godless and without morals

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    Democrats need to come to the table with a reasonable compromise, if Republicans don't play reasonably, then Democrats need to go it alone and give Republicans less than they would have got if they compromised. Democrats then need to make that public knowledge.
     
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  11. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    I was talking about the members of the house and senate, not about the president.
     
  12. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    I'm looking forward to the democrats attempts to make something "public knowledge" without that public knowledge blowing up in their face.
     
  13. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Well-Known Member

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    oh don't worry, they always manage to get enough GOP votes to pass what they want. That way, the GOP as a party can appear to be fighting for their constituents, and yet the agenda always moves forward (wink-wink). That's how it worked 8 years under Obama, and now they've got their status quo back (until voting time, that is. GOP is dead)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  14. SimplyMe

    SimplyMe Senior Veteran

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    I'll largely agree with this. While I find that most of the Republicans did it as a self-serving way to appease their constituents, just as a Democrat or two did in 2016, it does not seem worthy of punishment. My complaint about most of them, though, is that since most appear to know Biden won fairly -- that there was no real election "fraud," it does bother me that they chose to appease their constituents rather than to show the courage to stand up for what they know to be true.

    OTOH, I do think we need a full investigation into the events of that week. There are claims that some Republicans gave tours of the Capitol building, in the days before the riot. A couple of these members of Congress are allegedly even Q supporters, and as such should know some of the things that were being circulating, regarding an attack on Congress, and would seem to have understood they were providing "intelligence" to those that broke into the Capitol building.

    You also have Sen. Hawley with the raised fist, to show solidarity to the protestors -- though I believe that occurred before they broke down barriers (timing could be important here) and, as such, may be merely have been to show he sided with them with Pres. Trump.

    Last, there allegedly where members of Congress who Tweeted out the locations where they (with Democratic members of Congress) were being held; and it seems some punishment is deserved there. Granted, if it can be shown they were Tweeting so those who were rioting would know where to go, the punishment should be much worse; even if that isn't what they were doing, they should have known that in this type of evacuation due to security concerns, that you do not disclose the "secure" location you have been moved to.
     
  15. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    Oh, I agree. For any republicans who did more than just showboat with the electoral college votes, appropriate measures must be taken.

    I fully expect to see another electoral college vote challenge in the 2024 election, and the 2028. Doesn't matter which party won. It will just become a part of the theater of politics, like the quaint little traditions of the british parliament.

    It will be the USAs "slamming the door into blackrods face" tradition.
     
  16. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I greet that the 5 minute attack on the election was wrong then. Over the past hundred years, there have also been electors that registered protests by not voting for who they should.

    The situation was much different this time. Clinton and the Democratic Party immediately conceded defeat in 2016. None of the states were attacked and threatened unless they de-certified their votes.
    I don't recall any law suits, fighting the election results.

    Most important was the actual context of this vote. The capitol was attacked, people were killed, and the attack was made in order turn over the election and keep Trump in power. Trump gleefully watched and talked about how much he loved these followers (although he commented they might have dressed better).

    After the members of Senate and House were attacked, several members of the Senate gave up their attack on democracy. Only two continued with their attack. The House members showed just what they stand for, as they have in the past weeks. They are cult followers, even now saying that Trump did nothing to provoke any wrongful action.
     
  17. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    One item I think we can work together on is a new votings rights act which includes a voter ID compromise. I don’t know if Congress has the power to tell the states how to conduct votes, but it can look at the issues raised by both sides around voting and do something that prohibits voter suppression, establishes the right to accessible voting infrastructure, and provides free ID’s for people in a way that addresses the concerns from both sides on the issue.
     
  18. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's not how politics works or how it should work. One party does NOT come forward with a compromise. One comes forward with a proposal.
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One reason among many I favor prosecution of Donald Trump to the fullest extent of the law. The risk of him interfering in politics is too great, otherwise. Imagine if he manages to cower Republican lawmakers with intimidation and threats of violence, no matter how covert?
     
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compromising from the start is not compromise, it's appeasement, and it should be rejected if Democrats care about their credibility.
     
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