Some of us seem to be overlooking a very important fact

[Time4AChange]

Lord help me believe that someone else will believe

There's alot of objections to scriptures being only "God inspired" and not "God written", ok...let's take a different approach.

Lets not talk about anyone else but God and Jesus then, seeing as the God inspired scriptures written by Paul and the other writers of the Bible aren't credible enough for you guys (ill address that in a second). What did God and Jesus have to say about this...God defined marriage between man and a woman when it was said that "A MAN shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE, and they will become one flesh".....................Then Jesus confirmed that by saying in Matthew 19:4-6...And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.........You guys putting asunder the perfect will of God through homosexuality.

And for all those that keep discrediting the apostles and what they wrote about God, just remember this...What Paul and the other apostles taught carried the FULL weight of Christ's authority....that's not what I say, that's what Jesus said in Luke 10:16 when he was speaking to the apostles - "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me".

You guys are quick to claim that you follow what Jesus says and not the apostles. You call us "Paulians" and not "Christians" and all these other irrelevant stuff. But if you would actually do what you claim you do, and really and trully follow Christ...you would know what Christ said, and you would realize that you are rejecting Him by rejecting His word written by the apostles...and therefore you're rejecting GOD. I dont say, Jesus said it. Re-read Luke 10:16 and argue with Jesus if you have an objection to that.

 

[Murdock]

Lord help me believe that someone else will believe

There's alot of objections to scriptures being only "God inspired" and not "God written", ok...let's take a different approach.

Lets not talk about anyone else but God and Jesus then, seeing as the God inspired scriptures written by Paul and the other writers of the Bible aren't credible enough for you guys (ill address that in a second). What did God and Jesus have to say about this...God defined marriage between man and a woman when it was said that "A MAN shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE, and they will become one flesh".....................Then Jesus confirmed that by saying in Matthew 19:4-6...And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.........You guys putting asunder the perfect will of God through homosexuality.

And for all those that keep discrediting the apostles and what they wrote about God, just remember this...What Paul and the other apostles taught carried the FULL weight of Christ's authority....that's not what I say, that's what Jesus said in Luke 10:16 when he was speaking to the apostles - "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me".

You guys are quick to claim that you follow what Jesus says and not the apostles. You call us "Paulians" and not "Christians" and all these other irrelevant stuff. But if you would actually do what you claim you do, and really and trully follow Christ...you would know what Christ said, and you would realize that you are rejecting Him by rejecting His word written by the apostles...and therefore you're rejecting GOD. I dont say, Jesus said it. Re-read Luke 10:16 and argue with Jesus if you have an objection to that.

Good post.

 

[PinkTulip]

Interesting...

 

[Time4AChange]

Good post.

All glory be to God my sister.

 

[Brieuse]

Lord help me believe that someone else will believe

There's alot of objections to scriptures being only "God inspired" and not "God written", ok...let's take a different approach.

Lets not talk about anyone else but God and Jesus then, seeing as the God inspired scriptures written by Paul and the other writers of the Bible aren't credible enough for you guys (ill address that in a second). What did God and Jesus have to say about this...God defined marriage between man and a woman when it was said that "A MAN shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE, and they will become one flesh".....................Then Jesus confirmed that by saying in Matthew 19:4-6...And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.........You guys putting asunder the perfect will of God through homosexuality.

And for all those that keep discrediting the apostles and what they wrote about God, just remember this...What Paul and the other apostles taught carried the FULL weight of Christ's authority....that's not what I say, that's what Jesus said in Luke 10:16 when he was speaking to the apostles - "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me".

You guys are quick to claim that you follow what Jesus says and not the apostles. You call us "Paulians" and not "Christians" and all these other irrelevant stuff. But if you would actually do what you claim you do, and really and trully follow Christ...you would know what Christ said, and you would realize that you are rejecting Him by rejecting His word written by the apostles...and therefore you're rejecting GOD. I dont say, Jesus said it. Re-read Luke 10:16 and argue with Jesus if you have an objection to that.

Matthew 19 is about divorce.

Besides he goes on further

http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa133.htm

 

[Time4AChange]

Matthew 19 is about divorce.

Besides he goes on further

http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa133.htm

I know Matt. 19 is referring to divorce. The reason i referenced it was because Jesus Himself confirmed what marriage is. He HIMSELF said it's between a man and a woman. Jesus explicitly said what His EXACT views are regarding marriage, and His words exclude gay marriage as being something that's of God. Gay marriage is a man made commitment to "try" and justify sin. It is also made very clear that sex outside of marriage is a sin. So you put the two together and explain how being gay is okay.

On another note, if you guys pay close attention to what Jesus said, you'd realize that He gave credibility to the Scriptures. ALL of them, NT and OT. If you notice, the first thing that Christ said in Matt 19:4 is "have ye not READ." Jesus Himself is stressing the importance of reading the Scripture. When He was tempted by the devil what did Jesus do? He went back to the Scripture. He said IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, etc....He said IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God....He said IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve. Jesus was famous for quoting the Scriptures, and now when we quote Scriptures and try to actually follow what Jesus did, we are the ones that are seen as being in the wrong. Because we say that we shouldnt just "drop" the Bible as someone suggested, we've suddenly become too "conservative" in you guys' eyes. Well guess what, i follow Christ, not people's feelings. If HE valued the Scriptures when He was on earth, then I will too. If HE taught the importance of reading the word, then that's what i'll do. If HE referred back to the Scriptures, then I will too.

The truth will set you free. It's so easy to be in bondage and not even know you're in bondage. You could be staring at sin day after day and not even know it's sin. I used to be like that. But thank God for Jesus. For in Him EVERY deception of the enemy will be made clear as day, and through His strength you can overcome ANYTHING.

I know i kind of went in a different direction a little bit, but God put that in my spirit and i just had to say the things i said in this post and in my OP. I pray that we will stop resisting Him, and actually be the Christians that we claim we are. Christ has all the answers, so look to Him. God bless.

 

[brightmorningstar]

What Time4Achange is saying is crucial.
In Genesis 2 we see that God could not find a suitable companion for man so he created woman. It was thus/for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.
Quite obviously and logically if God couldnt find a companion for man so He created woman, He didn't find or create man for man. To suggest He could have created man for man is a direct contradiction. Furthermore, this is affirmed by Jesus teaching directly in the NT in Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, Hebrews 13.
There is also no other NT scripture that countenances any other union apart from a faithful man woman union such as described. This is why the Christian church has always upheld that God's puprose for sex is within this marriage. Incidentally if one looks at Matthew 19 one can see what breaks this is fornication (porneia) and adultery (moicheai) which are repeated throughout the NT as sin. The fact that same-sex acts are also specifically condemned along with other specific sexually immoral and adulterous acts only affirms that further.
If the same-sex condemnations Gen 19, Judges 19, leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1 didnt exist, it would still be quite clear that God's purpose is for sex to be within a faithful man woman union.

 

[Time4AChange]

What Time4Achange is saying is crucial.
In Genesis 2 we see that God could not find a suitable companion for man so he created woman. It was thus/for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.
Quite obviously and logically if God couldnt find a companion for man so He created woman, He didn't find or create man for man. To suggest He could have created man for man is a direct contradiction. Furthermore, this is affirmed by Jesus teaching directly in the NT in Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, Hebrews 13.
There is also no other NT scripture that countenances any other union apart from a faithful man woman union such as described. This is why the Christian church has always upheld that God's puprose for sex is within this marriage. Incidentally if one looks at Matthew 19 one can see what breaks this is fornication (porneia) and adultery (moicheai) which are repeated throughout the NT as sin. The fact that same-sex acts are also specifically condemned along with other specific sexually immoral and adulterous acts only affirms that further.
If the same-sex condemnations Gen 19, Judges 19, leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1 didnt exist, it would still be quite clear that God's purpose is for sex to be within a faithful man woman union.

Amen.

Honestly, God's word is very clear. People who deny it and make excuses just do so because they are not willing to submit themselves completely. That's why scriptures like 2Tim 4:3 are so relevant to the times we're in.

 

[Brieuse]

Amen.

Honestly, God's word is very clear. People who deny it and make excuses just do so because they are not willing to submit themselves completely. That's why scriptures like 2Tim 4:3 are so relevant to the times we're in.

not willing? you are so horribly wrong.

 

[Time4AChange]

not willing? you are so horribly wrong.

So my brother, if you ARE willing to submit yourself completely to Jesus....what's keeping you from accepting the fact that homosexuality is wrong? Do you not see the need to give it up? Or do you somehow think that what Jesus said in Matt. 19: 4-6 and Luke 10:16 is irrelevant?

God is so wonderful....He really and truly does know all things. Jesus knew the reason why he said what He said in Luke 10:16. He knew that people would try to justify their sin by saying "Jesus didn't say that, Paul did...we don't follow Paul, we follow Christ"....ok well fine, follow Christ then...Christ defined what marriage is, Christ also said that if you reject the apostles, then you reject Him, and if you reject Him, you reject the one who sent Him. It's sharp and to the point. Like Hebrews 4:12 says For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God's word hits deep, but it does that for a reason....so that we could see our sins right before our eyes, no excuses...and we come to Him with a truly repentant and broken heart because we know what we've done wrong.

 

[Brieuse]

So my brother, if you ARE willing to submit yourself completely to Jesus....what's keeping you from accepting the fact that homosexuality is wrong? Do you not see the need to give it up? Or do you somehow think that what Jesus said in Matt. 19: 4-6 and Luke 10:16 is irrelevant?

God is so wonderful....He really and truly does know all things. Jesus knew the reason why he said what He said in Luke 10:16. He knew that people would try to justify their sin by saying "Jesus didn't say that, Paul did...we don't follow Paul, we follow Christ"....ok well fine, follow Christ then...Christ defined what marriage is, Christ also said that if you reject the apostles, then you reject Him, and if you reject Him, you reject the one who sent Him. It's sharp and to the point. Like Hebrews 4:12 says For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God's word hits deep, but it does that for a reason....so that we could see our sins right before our eyes, no excuses...and we come to Him with a truly repentant and broken heart because we know what we've done wrong.

Because I know in my heart that Homosexuality is not wrong.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Jesus spoke explicetly about man and woman in a marriage, yes.

However, Jesus doesnt say ANYTHING to lead us to the conclusion that a same sex marriage isn't equally valid.

He speaks to the dominant paradigm of the time, which makes sense. But lets please be careful about falling into the trap of saying "Jesus doesn't SPECIFICALLY say such and such is, OK, therefore its wrong"... because if we do that, cars, antibiotics, reading glasses and Democracy are all out.

I am aware that the other side of the statement isn't true either... I don't want anyone saying "Jesus doesn't say such and such is specifically wrong, therefore its OK"... I believe the simple fact of the matter is, that while the Bible is an excelent GUIDE... it isn't capable of answering every possible question in every possible situation... merely to guide us towards the right answer.

THAT, is why God gave us brains to reason with... if God DIDN'T want us using our own intellect, the Bible would be a simple list of instructions for how to behave in any givn situation. It isn't.

So, when we come to issues like homosexuality, that Jesus doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention... ascribing some sort of message to the omission is wrong. (the afore mentioned, Jesus doesn't mention it, so its bad, or vice versa)So what we have to do is take the parts of Jesus' message that ARE there, what He DOES say, and then combine that message with our own mental tools to come to a conclussion.

In this case, I believe that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" may be paraphrased as "any actions that are committed with the mutual informed consent of all parties are acceptible to God"

Committed, loving homosexual relationships are just such an action, and until such time as someone can provide me with a logical reason to consider homosexual relationships as "bad", OTHER than Leviticus and Romans, I will continue to see them as acceptible to God.

As I've said elsewhere, if Bibklical law makes sense, I'll follow it. If it doesn't make sense, I'll question it.

The Biblical injunction against homosexuality desn't make sense, so I'm questioning it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,

Because I know in my heart that Homosexuality is not wrong.

What we know in our hearts is not necesarily the truth, for Christians we have our hearts and minds renewed so that our hearts and minds are in line with God's purposes. Romans 12:2. I dont see how homosexuality can necessarily be anymore wrong than heterosexuality, my sexuality is Christian.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear EnemyPartyII

Jesus spoke explicetly about man and woman in a marriage, yes.
However, Jesus doesnt say ANYTHING to lead us to the conclusion that a same sex marriage isn't equally valid.

Well yes He did, He did so when He spoke explicitly about a man and a woman in marriage as His creation purpose. If He made woman for man, so this reason then He obviously didn’t make man for man or animal for man or anything else.
The points are
Jesus taught explicitly about man and woman in union. Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6.
Jesus taught explicitly against man and man, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1
Jesus didn’t specifically teach anything about same-sex union apart from it is sin.

And when it comes to God giving us brains to reason with we can reason Jesus Christ is the truth and His teaching or not, in fact reasoning it is not is according to Jesus teaching is foolishness.Matt 7:26, 1 Cor 1:18 and of course specifically about same-sex sex Romans 1:21

So, when we come to issues like homosexuality, that Jesus doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention...

but He doesn’t mention heterosexuality either nor paedophilia, He does however mention that sex should be within a man woman union and that same-sex sex is wrong. Its not about what He doesn’t mention contrary to what He does mention, but simply about what He does mention. Are you implying homosexuality is just the desire? if so Jesus possibly doesnt mention it, if you include same-sex sex He does mention it. Jesus doesnt mention love either, he mentions agapeo and phileo.

In this case, I believe that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" may be paraphrased as "any actions that are committed with the mutual informed consent of all parties are acceptible to God"

But how do you suppose that if you don’t see what others point out to what Jesus teaches they will automatically see what you point out?

Committed, loving homosexual relationships are just such an action, and until such time as someone can provide me with a logical reason to consider homosexual relationships as "bad", OTHER than Leviticus and Romans, I will continue to see them as acceptible to God.

Well several posters have provided you with several reasons like Genesis 2, 19, Judges 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1 , 2 Peter 2, Jude 1. and we can give many more examples of passages about man and woman, husband and wife and bride and bridegroom. What a number of us are waiting for is you to provide some scriptures that countenance same-sex sex. (and indeed where loving and committed comes into it)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If He made woman for man, so this reason then He obviously didn’t make man for man or animal for man or anything else.

But the Bible NEVER SAYS that woman is made for man ONLY or vice versa... this is an assumption on your part.

And when it comes to God giving us brains to reason with we can reason Jesus Christ is the truth and His teaching or not, in fact reasoning it is not is according to Jesus teaching is foolishness.Matt 7:26, 1 Cor 1:18 and of course specifically about same-sex sex Romans 1:21

I'm not sure what you mean... are you saying we should follow all scripture without question, even when it is obviously flawed?

and that same-sex sex is wrong.

BLATANTLY FALSE Jesus never says anything of the sort. You are, again, making assumptions about what he meant, and putting words into his mouth.

But how do you suppose that if you don’t see what others point out to what Jesus teaches they will automatically see what you point out?

Could you please rephrase? I don't understand the question

Well several posters have provided you with several reasons like Genesis 2, 19, Judges 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1 , 2 Peter 2, Jude 1

These aren't REASONS these are BIBLE VERSES... there is a difference...

Let me put it this way, can you give me a reason to consider murder a bad thing without using the Bible? Of course you can.

Rape? Sure. Stealing? how many non biblical reasons would you like?

Now... can you give me a NON BIBLICAL reason to consider homosexuality as bad that is logical and consistent to the rest of your beliefs?

and we can give many more examples of passages about man and woman, husband and wife and bride and bridegroom.

I'm sur you can. And I'll just point out again that they are addressing the dominant paradigm... but that there is no reason to believe that inserting same sex or gender neutral terms into these passages makes them any less valid.

What a number of us are waiting for is you to provide some scriptures that countenance same-sex sex. (and indeed where loving and committed comes into it)

I keep telling you... "Do unto others..."

Means if you and a partner are both desiring a same sex relationship, then go for it. As for loving and committed, well, thats the beast way to proceed so no one gets harmed, which is why it is the cultural archetype on every continent. The Bible ISN'T about arbitrary laws to follow without understanding why... its about humans getting along with each other in the best possible fashion.

If you are going to insist the Bible is to be followed blindly, even the silly bits, well thats your prerogative, and we will never agree, because I simply DON'T believe that that is God's intention in giving us guidance.

 

[Brieuse]

Dear Brieuse,
What we know in our hearts is not necesarily the truth, for Christians we have our hearts and minds renewed so that our hearts and minds are in line with God's purposes. Romans 12:2. I dont see how homosexuality can necessarily be anymore wrong than heterosexuality, my sexuality is Christian.

Obviously, yes.

I spent a significant portion of my life, and still do, ensuring that my thoughts and actions comply with God's wishes for me.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear EnemyPartyII

But the Bible NEVER SAYS that woman is made for man ONLY or vice versa... this is an assumption on your part.

On my part it is not an assumption, it does say that.
The point is the Bible doesn’t say anything about any other relationship which is an assumption on your part if you cant show any evidence.
And when it comes to God giving us brains to reason with we can reason Jesus Christ is the truth and His teaching or not, in fact reasoning it is not is according to Jesus teaching is foolishness.Matt 7:26, 1 Cor 1:18 and of course specifically about same-sex sex Romans 1:21

I'm not sure what you mean... are you saying we should follow all scripture without question, even when it is obviously flawed?

I have quoted the scripture, if you are not sure what I mean you are not sure what the scripture means.
As to your question, I question what all scripture means, I don’t question it being wrong.

BLATANTLY FALSE Jesus never says anything of the sort.

I think He does.
At the moment your argument seems only based on what the Bible doesn’t say and a rejection of the passages I think show your argument is wrong.

Could you please rephrase? I don't understand the question

What I mean is I thought your comment was based on Bible passages, but so was mine, therefore if you don’t accept mine why should you assume I must accept yours?

These aren't REASONS these are BIBLE VERSES... there is a difference...

I believe the Bible verses address the issue and are therefore the reason and explanation…. But they are Bible verses I believe say clearly what they say.

Let me put it this way, can you give me a reason to consider murder a bad thing without using the Bible? Of course you can.

I can also tell you of people who can give you a reason murder is a good thing (without the Bible), I think they are wrong. What I am asking you is with the Bible what can you give me to support your argument that gives a countenacne of same-sex sex.?

I'm sur you can. And I'll just point out again that they are addressing the dominant paradigm... but that there is no reason to believe that inserting same sex or gender neutral terms into these passages makes them any less valid.

No that’s just your opinion, my opinion of them is that you are missing or ignoring what they clearly states.

I keep telling you... "Do unto others..."

I can’t see anywhere this talks about sex or man/woman or man/man, or committed relationships apart from a generality.

Means if you and a partner are both desiring a same sex relationship, then go for it. As for loving and committed, well, thats the beast way to proceed so no one gets harmed, which is why it is the cultural archetype on every continent. The Bible ISN'T about arbitrary laws to follow without understanding why... its about humans getting along with each other in the best possible fashion.

Surely it means if you have a sexual partner that is the same sex that is evil. Read Matthew 7 again where the quote comes from, Jesus makes no reference to sex except that the treatment is the fulfilment of the law and the prophets in which same-sex sex is a sin.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,

Obviously, yes.

Alas from the argument you are putting forward I would say the evidence I have cited says obviously not.
What I would like to see is evidence from scripture, I mean relying on our feelings was what I did before my heart and mind knew the truth as revealed in scripture. All you have convinced me of is your feeling have chnged because of your feelings.

 

[Brieuse]

Dear Brieuse,
Alas from the argument you are putting forward I would say the evidence I have cited says obviously not.
What I would like to see is evidence from scripture, I mean relying on our feelings was what I did before my heart and mind knew the truth as revealed in scripture. All you have convinced me of is your feeling have chnged because of your feelings.

What argument am I putting across? I'm just speaking from my experience.

It's very important for me to be in God's Will.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,

It's very important for me to be in God's Will.

I feel that is non f my business, I do not wish to discuss personal situation.

What argument am I putting across? I'm just speaking from my experience.

I thought we had agreed that its about renewing of hearts and minds?
My experience is that many of the desires I still have I used to think were justified, until I accepted Jesus as Lord and see from His teaching that they are wrong. The Holy Spirit has convicted me and I now do not like those desires. But it is not my experience that convicts me, but the Holy Spirit and the scripture.