Some of us seem to be overlooking a very important fact

[Brieuse]

Dear Brieuse,

I feel that is non f my business, I do not wish to discuss personal situation.


I thought we had agreed that its about renewing of hearts and minds?
My experience is that many of the desires I still have I used to think were justified, until I accepted Jesus as Lord and see from His teaching that they are wrong. The Holy Spirit has convicted me and I now do not like those desires. But it is not my experience that convicts me, but the Holy Spirit and the scripture.

yes, of course. Likewise, the Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin. Obviously with scripture.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,
Ok many thanks
The Holy Spirit guides us and reminds us of all Jesus taught.... it looks like one of us is not being guided by the Holy Spirit as the truth cannot be two opposite things.
That is why it is important to cite the scriptures which the Holy Spirit is guiding us through. This is why I feel Genesis 2, 19, Leviticus 18, 20, Judges 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, is comprehensive affirmation.

Ok many thanks,

 

[Brieuse]

Dear Brieuse,
Ok many thanks
The Holy Spirit guides us and reminds us of all Jesus taught.... it looks like one of us is not being guided by the Holy Spirit as the truth cannot be two opposite things.
That is why it is important to cite the scriptures which the Holy Spirit is guiding us through. This is why I feel Genesis 2, 19, Leviticus 18, 20, Judges 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, is comprehensive affirmation.

Ok many thanks,

I've already posted my belief on those above passages.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,

Yes but what passages have you got to support your view, I havent had any to comment on yet.

 

[Time4AChange]

Thank you guys for responding. Thank you enemyparty, and thank you brieuse.

And for all those that keep discrediting the apostles and what they wrote about God, just remember this...What Paul and the other apostles taught carried the FULL weight of Christ's authority....that's not what I say, that's what Jesus said in Luke 10:16 when he was speaking to the apostles - "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me".

You guys are quick to claim that you follow what Jesus says and not the apostles. You call us "Paulians" and not "Christians" and all these other irrelevant stuff. But if you would actually do what you claim you do, and really and trully follow Christ...you would know what Christ said, and you would realize that you are rejecting Him by rejecting His word written by the apostles...and therefore you're rejecting GOD. I dont say, Jesus said it. Re-read Luke 10:16 and argue with Jesus if you have an objection to that

But you guys are completely hopping around what i just quoted. Can you address this please. The apostles wrote what Christ wanted them to, Paul wrote what Christ wanted him to. And Christ said that if you reject them, you are rejecting Him..and therefore rejecting God. EnemyParty, i've seen you reject Paul numerous times, and you've even called us "Paulians" cuz we believe what Paul said is what God wanted us to hear. By Christ's standards, you're rejecting Him. Does that not concern you?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Because I know in my heart that Homosexuality is not wrong.[/SIZE]

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.​

 

[UnitedInChrist]

I know Matt. 19 is referring to divorce. The reason i referenced it was because Jesus Himself confirmed what marriage is. He HIMSELF said it's between a man and a woman. Jesus explicitly said what His EXACT views are regarding marriage, and His words exclude gay marriage as being something that's of God. Gay marriage is a man made commitment to "try" and justify sin. It is also made very clear that sex outside of marriage is a sin. So you put the two together and explain how being gay is okay.

On another note, if you guys pay close attention to what Jesus said, you'd realize that He gave credibility to the Scriptures. ALL of them, NT and OT. If you notice, the first thing that Christ said in Matt 19:4 is "have ye not READ." Jesus Himself is stressing the importance of reading the Scripture. When He was tempted by the devil what did Jesus do? He went back to the Scripture. He said IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, etc....He said IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God....He said IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve. Jesus was famous for quoting the Scriptures, and now when we quote Scriptures and try to actually follow what Jesus did, we are the ones that are seen as being in the wrong. Because we say that we shouldnt just "drop" the Bible as someone suggested, we've suddenly become too "conservative" in you guys' eyes. Well guess what, i follow Christ, not people's feelings. If HE valued the Scriptures when He was on earth, then I will too. If HE taught the importance of reading the word, then that's what i'll do. If HE referred back to the Scriptures, then I will too.

The truth will set you free. It's so easy to be in bondage and not even know you're in bondage. You could be staring at sin day after day and not even know it's sin. I used to be like that. But thank God for Jesus. For in Him EVERY deception of the enemy will be made clear as day, and through His strength you can overcome ANYTHING.

I know i kind of went in a different direction a little bit, but God put that in my spirit and i just had to say the things i said in this post and in my OP. I pray that we will stop resisting Him, and actually be the Christians that we claim we are. Christ has all the answers, so look to Him. God bless.

Besides man being MADE for a woman (and I don't think anyone has ever denied that on any of these posts but that's another topic)...ask how many married women out there believe they have given up their identity to become ONE with their husband. I have yet to know of any married couples that consider themselves "one". Each are very individuals, doing their own thing, and trying as hard as ever to keep their marriages together. So shed some light on this. No one is stupid enough to believe that man was ONLY made for woman. There are plenty of men that never get married and plenty of women that never have kids. If they ALL decided to do that...where would the population be? So the arguement for man being made for women, for procreation purposes, doesn't hold. And, then when it comes to that...what about all the unwed single moms, that come to church every Sunday...CLEARLY going against what God "asks" by having sex outside of marriage. Why don't they make the headlines? Why don't they get beat up by the ministers/pastors/priests/etc? It's because there isn't a hatred for people having children..out of wedlock, or even a teenage pregnancy. Clearly as bad as a homosexual in the bible's eyes, but when it comes to reality...they are embraced, and patted on the back for giving someone a grandchild, or a son/daughter. There is almost a "proud" cloud around a child, and there very well should be. However, have two gay men come into a congregation, or want to be joined under God's eyes, and bible obsessed go through the roof. Why is that? Simply because the bible obsessed DO NOT LIKE HOMOSEXUALS!!!! End of story. As a result, they will do what they must to show they are correct in having those feelings. At the same time, how many people do you see starting threads with "premarital sex is detestible" or "unwed moms are an abomination".. It's not going to happen. Gay people...it's a circus. All the gay threads are mostly started by people who "aren't" gay..so that alone should tell you something. Listen, gay people aren't stupid. Their lives are in the spotlight daily, and they are always finding themselves having to prove themselves to people that they are normal people like everyone else. Just to live a gay life is so much more overwhelming than a str8 life, yet people seem to think we "choose" to be part of a group of people because we like to have less rights, be beat up, and to be told "we don't need Jesus in our lives". If one, JUST ONE, person that is so hateful on these boards can just perhaps for a moment...just a moment, ask themselves..."maybe they have something here". "Maybe, just maybe I have such a strong animosity to gay people not b/c of what the bible may say to some, but simply b/c they just do not like it". I would much rather hear people say something like that for it's HONEST, rather than using spin tactics like gay people are stupid and can't see what is really going on.

 

[CShephard53]

The Biblical injunction against homosexuality desn't make sense, so I'm questioning it.

You know, it really doesn't make sense not to covet something. I mean really. Why should God have a problem with me admiring and desiring something? What's the harm?
And it really doesn't make sense that a loving God would condemn anything outside His ideals.

Notice a pattern here? No? Let's continue then:

Likewise, the Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin. Obviously with scripture.

You know, I recently used sarcasm to a brother in Christ. I felt convicted by the HS of it. But I'm not told not to be sarcastic in Scripture. So I'm going to continue, how does that sound?

Now are you getting it? Still no? Continuing, then:

If you are going to insist the Bible is to be followed blindly, even the silly bits, well thats your prerogative, and we will never agree, because I simply DON'T believe that that is God's intention in giving us guidance.

You know, I think it's just silly that we're supposed to love our enemies. I also think it's silly that a loving God would order the killing of children. So, I'm going to conclude that God really didn't order the killing of children- man really messed that up in writing it down, and wanted to justify their bloodlust. And I'm also going to conclude that we should really hate our enemies.

I think you are getting the idea, but there's two more I'd like to address.

I'm not sure what you mean... are you saying we should follow all scripture without question, even when it is obviously flawed?

If it's obviously flawed, why didn't we know 1,000 years ago? 500 years ago? 10 years ago? Why are we just getting told now?
And you know what? I really think the part where Jesus came back from the dead is obviously flawed. So, it's flawed, and Jesus didn't really rise. And science tells me noone can rise from the dead, so that must really make it a flaw.

Do you see the problems here?

But the Bible NEVER SAYS that woman is made for man ONLY or vice versa... this is an assumption on your part.

The anatomy of a female indicates that it was meant for the anatomy of a male, put in a non-TMI way.
Also, reproduction doesn't happen when you get two people of the same sex together. It just doesn't work.
And I've never heard of a same-sex relationship where they were more deeply connected with each other an God.

Now... can you give me a NON BIBLICAL reason to consider homosexuality as bad that is logical and consistent to the rest of your beliefs?

Sure. Same-sex couples do not stay together as much as different-sex couples.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Besides man being MADE for a woman (and I don't think anyone has ever denied that on any of these posts but that's another topic)...ask how many married women out there believe they have given up their identity to become ONE with their husband. I have yet to know of any married couples that consider themselves "one". Each are very individuals, doing their own thing, and trying as hard as ever to keep their marriages together. So shed some light on this. No one is stupid enough to believe that man was ONLY made for woman. There are plenty of men that never get married and plenty of women that never have kids. If they ALL decided to do that...where would the population be? So the arguement for man being made for women, for procreation purposes, doesn't hold. And, then when it comes to that...what about all the unwed single moms, that come to church every Sunday...CLEARLY going against what God "asks" by having sex outside of marriage. Why don't they make the headlines? Why don't they get beat up by the ministers/pastors/priests/etc? It's because there isn't a hatred for people having children..out of wedlock, or even a teenage pregnancy. Clearly as bad as a homosexual in the bible's eyes, but when it comes to reality...they are embraced, and patted on the back for giving someone a grandchild, or a son/daughter. There is almost a "proud" cloud around a child, and there very well should be. However, have two gay men come into a congregation, or want to be joined under God's eyes, and bible obsessed go through the roof. Why is that? Simply because the bible obsessed DO NOT LIKE HOMOSEXUALS!!!! End of story. As a result, they will do what they must to show they are correct in having those feelings. At the same time, how many people do you see starting threads with "premarital sex is detestible" or "unwed moms are an abomination".. It's not going to happen. Gay people...it's a circus. All the gay threads are mostly started by people who "aren't" gay..so that alone should tell you something. Listen, gay people aren't stupid. Their lives are in the spotlight daily, and they are always finding themselves having to prove themselves to people that they are normal people like everyone else. Just to live a gay life is so much more overwhelming than a str8 life, yet people seem to think we "choose" to be part of a group of people because we like to have less rights, be beat up, and to be told "we don't need Jesus in our lives". If one, JUST ONE, person that is so hateful on these boards can just perhaps for a moment...just a moment, ask themselves..."maybe they have something here". "Maybe, just maybe I have such a strong animosity to gay people not b/c of what the bible may say to some, but simply b/c they just do not like it". I would much rather hear people say something like that for it's HONEST, rather than using spin tactics like gay people are stupid and can't see what is really going on.

You really don't know why there aren't alot of threads about premarital sex being a sin? It is for the same reason that there aren't alot of threads about murder, stealing, adultery, fornification being sins. It is because there aren't any, or at least not alot, who don't believe the scriptures when they call these things sins. It is because those parts of the scriptures aren't said to be mistranslated or only counted back then but not now.

Why should an unwed mother going to church with her child make headlines? Is there a better place for her and her child to be but in church?

Why is it we aren't called haters and bigots for saying premarital sex, murder, stealing, etc. is sins? We are doing nothing different when we call homosexuality a sin then we are for calling the other things I just listed a sin. Yet we are told we aren't being loving like Christ, only when we say homosexuality is a sin. We are told we have a strong anomosity toward them, yet we aren't told that for calling a murderer a sinner. We aren't told that when we remind everyone that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. I don't see people saying that when we point out that we all need to confess and repent of our sins.

No, we are only called names if homosexuality is mentioned. We can talk about all the other sins, but we sure are spinning things and lying if we mention homosexuality.

Yes lets be honest. The only one I see having anomosity toward anyone......................nevermind.

Boy, now I remember why I haven't been here for awhile.

Time4AChange,
I wanted to say that I learned alot from your posts, and scripture usage. Thanks!

Well I am glad I learned somethings by stopping in, but see no reason to continue down this road again. Good Day All.
​

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Thank you guys for responding. Thank you enemyparty, and thank you brieuse.

But you guys are completely hopping around what i just quoted. Can you address this please. The apostles wrote what Christ wanted them to, Paul wrote what Christ wanted him to. And Christ said that if you reject them, you are rejecting Him..and therefore rejecting God. EnemyParty, i've seen you reject Paul numerous times, and you've even called us "Paulians" cuz we believe what Paul said is what God wanted us to hear. By Christ's standards, you're rejecting Him. Does that not concern you?

Does it concern me? Well... it might if Christ had ever said that Paul would be writing with His authority...

Look, its not that I think what Paul had to say was invalid, or meaningless, or ill considered, nor even that I think he wasn't writing with the inspiration of God... I just don't think that Paul's writings are the same as if God had handed the same texts out carved in stone, and I still don't think that Paul, or much of the Bible, necesarily transfers directly onto modern society.

Technology and social trends between then and now have changed. There are things we consider immoral today that Biblical authors thought were fine, and there are things we think are fine today that Biblical authors didn't think were fine.

There are changes between the time of the OT and the time of the NT in the Bible itself... the Bible itself sets a precedent that the way man is supposed to follow the will of God changes...

So, I'll say it again. If the Bible says something is a sin, and I can see a logical, reasonable reason to agree, then I have no problem following it. If, however, I CAN'T see a logical, reasonable reason to follow something, I'll question it until someone can clearly and consistently show me what the logical, reasonable reason is.

Is this really asking too much?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear rick0824
You last post was in response to a post by Time4AChange in which he cited scripture and all of his argument was scripturally based. I have to say your response seems unscriptural and seems to be your own reasoning. You seem to be offering personal feelings and reason up against scripture.

 

[CShephard53]

If, however, I CAN'T see a logical, reasonable reason to follow something, I'll question it until someone can clearly and consistently show me what the logical, reasonable reason is.

Go over to GA (General apologetics) and see how far you get with 'rational' and 'Bible' in the same sentence.
Not to say there aren't valid reasons. But with your logic, you're setting yourself up to throw out much of what the Bible teaches simply because you don't think it applies.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear EnemyPartyII

Does it concern me? Well... it might if Christ had ever said that Paul would be writing with His authority...

Christ did, according to Paul, Peter and Luke. Who do you think Christ gave authority to?

There are things we consider immoral today that Biblical authors thought were fine, and there are things we think are fine today that Biblical authors didn't think were fine. {/quote] that’s ok but that means you don’t accept Jesus teaching was from God, we do of course.

So, I'll say it again. If the Bible says something is a sin, and I can see a logical, reasonable reason to agree, then I have no problem following it. If, however, I CAN'T see a logical, reasonable reason to follow something, I'll question it until someone can clearly and consistently show me what the logical, reasonable reason is.

That’s fine but I can and have shown you secular studies that heavily support God’s purpose as being the best way.

But I fully accept your position. I hope I havent been too agressive in my arguments

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Does it concern me? Well... it might if Christ had ever said that Paul would be writing with His authority...

Look, its not that I think what Paul had to say was invalid, or meaningless, or ill considered, nor even that I think he wasn't writing with the inspiration of God... I just don't think that Paul's writings are the same as if God had handed the same texts out carved in stone, and I still don't think that Paul, or much of the Bible, necesarily transfers directly onto modern society.[/SIZE]

Jesus prayed that the disciples, their words, and those that believed on their words, would be sanctified.

Did God honor that prayer or ignore it, like YOU ignore Jesus words?

John, one of those disciples that Jesus prayed for and sent into the world, said that Paul's words were scripture.

Who should we believe? Those disciples who followed Jesus, or someone who does their dead level best to tear down the Bible?

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

 

[ContentInHim]

Because I know in my heart that Homosexuality is not wrong.

Then, please back it up with something scriptural. Because the Israelites "did what each thought right in his own eyes" during the times of the Judges and they were HORRIBLY wrong. "It's right in my heart" is the New Age cry - it's the cry of the individual -- in rebellion against his loving God.

 

[ContentInHim]

Obviously, yes.

I spent a significant portion of my life, and still do, ensuring that my thoughts and actions comply with God's wishes for me.

But if what you perceive as those wishes for you go against his written word, do you not see that they are NOT GOD'S WISHES, but a deception. God will NEVER go against his word.

 

[Brieuse]

Then, please back it up with something scriptural. Because the Israelites "did what each thought right in his own eyes" during the times of the Judges and they were HORRIBLY wrong. "It's right in my heart" is the New Age cry - it's the cry of the individual -- in rebellion against his loving God.

ok, but first you need to back with scriptural proof that it is not sin to drive a car.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Did God honor that prayer or ignore it, like YOU ignore Jesus words?

Gauntlet time again... find me any words of Jesus that condemn homosexuality and I'll stop this instant.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

But if what you perceive as those wishes for you go against his written word, do you not see that they are NOT GOD'S WISHES, but a deception. God will NEVER go against his word.

Except for that whole New Covenant thing... where he does...

Hey, I really don't have a problem following God's law, I really truly don't.

However, it is still my contention that if a law is illogical or unreasonable and especially if its unjust, it doesn't come from God. So far, no one has provided me with a logical, reasonable, or justifiable reason to consider homosexuality wrong, so until such time as such reason is provided, I'll continue to doubt that the specifically anti-homosexual bits of the Bible, come from God.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Well, why should we follow what the Bible says when it doesn't apply?