Some object to Transubstantiation; but what do the objectors think it means?

[FireDragon76]

236. It is in the Eucharist that all that has been created finds its greatest exaltation. Grace, which tends to manifest itself tangibly, found unsurpassable expression when God himself became man and gave himself as food for his creatures. The Lord, in the culmination of the mystery of the Incarnation, chose to reach our intimate depths through a fragment of matter. He comes not from above, but from within, he comes that we might find him in this world of ours. In the Eucharist, fullness is already achieved; it is the living centre of the universe, the overflowing core of love and of inexhaustible life. Joined to the incarnate Son, present in the Eucharist, the whole cosmos gives thanks to God. Indeed the Eucharist is itself an act of cosmic love: “Yes, cosmic! Because even when it is celebrated on the humble altar of a country church, the Eucharist is always in some way celebrated on the altar of the world”. The Eucharist joins heaven and earth; it embraces and penetrates all creation. The world which came forth from God’s hands returns to him in blessed and undivided adoration: in the bread of the Eucharist, “creation is projected towards divinization, towards the holy wedding feast, towards unification with the Creator himself”. Thus, the Eucharist is also a source of light and motivation for our concerns for the environment, directing us to be stewards of all creation.​

Laudato si - Francis, Bishop of Rome and Patriarch of the West​

I find what Francis wrote here especially helpful. I have generally struggled with the notion of Transubstantiation as I feel it simply does not go far enough and in some sense, it prioritises the physical over the spiritual. Eastern Christians have a much more nuanced view, which does not need a nailed-down doctrine like Transubstantiation, yet they also don't embrace a mere tokenistic view of the Holy Mystery. There is far more to life than the atomic construction - life is not simply birth copulation and death, it is also ecstasy and joy.

The ancient Celts used to speak of thin places, and borderlands. These were places in the material world where eternity would seep through, places noted for spiritual awareness, and places where time and eternity great one another. I see the Eucharist as a thin place, a table set in this world and the next, and that there is only one table, so even when we pretend in our institutional tribes that we are not in communion, ultimately we are because we all sit and the one table. I see the Holy Eucharist as eschatological.

When Jesus says 'Take; this is my body.' (Mark 14:22) my choices are to take him at his word and accept the mystery - to dismiss it absolutely - or to find some way to intellectualise the proposition and find ways to understand that wasn't what Jesus meant or that it is somehow qualified.

I like what Francis has said, it reminds me of Teilhard de Chardin. But when Catholic traditionalists start talking in the language of Tridentine Catholicism, about how the bread only appears to be bread... it goes off the rails and there's no grandeur in that.

 

[Jipsah]

If the bread and wine only appears as such, but have no real existence of their own, then it isn't a sacrament

Huh? Is there a specification for sacraments that requires that bread and wine be involved?

but an illusion.

Nah, in transubstantiation the "accidents" of the bread a wine remain. No hallucinations necessary.

It also potentially says alot about Christology, implying that Christ's humanity was an illusion also.

You may infer that, but IMO the inference is baseless. You could also infer that the goblet, the plate, and possibly even the table no longer exist if it seemed good to you, but there's no real logical basis for any of it.
The trick is that one needn't believe in transubstantiation in order to believe in the Real Presence of our Lord's Body and Blood in the sacrament. I have no quarrel with the idea, but in no way do I consider it dogma. It's sufficient for me to know that Christ said the bread and wine are His Body and Blood and accept it as the Word of the Lord

 

[Jipsah]

I believe that when Jesus spoke those words they were symbolic, He was still right there in front of all the others, they could clearly see that He was initiating a custom of remembrance very much like the symbolic pass over remembrance that they were all accustomed to celebrating.

And that so offended most of them so much that they walked away. And our Lord made no effort to stop them. When it couild all have been clarified if He'd said Take, eat, this represents my body and This cup symbolizes my Blood.

 

[FireDragon76]

Huh? Is there a specification for sacraments that requires that bread and wine be involved?

Yes. Most historic Protestant traditions, such as the Reformed, Lutherans, or Methodists define a sacrament as involving something material joined with the promise of God. Otherwise, it cannot be a sacrament.

Furthermore, this is reflected in alot of Protestant hymns, so it isn't inconsequential. Marty Haugen's "All are Welcome", a contemporary Lutheran hymn also sung by some Catholics, was criticized several years ago by some Catholic bishops' committee because of the supposed insufficient Eucharistic theology expressed, and the suppression of the hymn was encouraged:

Let us build a house where love is found
in water, wine and wheat:
a banquet hall on holy ground
where peace and justice meet.

 

[Jipsah]

We think it is dark-ages level nonsense about bread turning into human flesh but WITHOUT any change to its appearance and even at the mircoscopic level still remaining as just bread.

Yeah, our Lord didn't know any of that scientifical stuff, else He'd never have said it. Right?

Some sort of superstition about "carbon atoms" that change from being carbon atoms that form molecules as the foundation of bread - to being carbon atoms of a human body forming those same exact molecules as the foundation of that same bread.

So lessee, God can speak a universe into being, but He can't speak bread and wine into flesh and blood. And worse yet, He didn't even know that the very idea was a dark ages superstition.

Yeah, I reckon we're gonna have to continue to disagree on that one.

And I see in some publications that a priest defrocked for outright heresy "retains the power" to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist - as if this is all about confecting and having the power to do something.

You object to heresy now? You certain about that? But the Body and Blood are there by the authority of He by Whom All Things Were Made. I'm not overly concerned with how my Roman brethren describe it. The Lord Himself said it, therefore it isn't merely true, it's The Truth. Y'all are free to babble about carbon atoms and dark ages and dark ages superstition if you like if it makes you feel all 21st Century.

hat is interesting to me is that the strongest statements that Jesus makes about this topic are in John 6 - where clearly He explains His symbolism which Peter appears to understand

The sort of knight-jump "exegesis" that SDA is built on, apparently; with a little judicious ignoring of inconvenient Scriptures, which one is required to pointedly ignore. These, for instance:

1 Corinthians
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Now how could anyone be guilty of the Body and Blood of our Lord when it's Just Bread and Wine, and how can anyone manage to discern the Lord's Body when it was never there in the first place?

- and neither faithul nor faithless followers of Christ - bite Christ.

I'll bet that lame joke is drawing people to SDA churches in droves, innit?

 

[Jipsah]

If he were Christ then it is the priest who would be eaten just then - logically speaking.

Logic isn't really your strong suit, is it?

We all quote those words from 1 Cor 11 - but that does not mean that we think the carbon atoms in the bread change to be carbon atoms from some other source - while remaining bread.

Or that you necessarily think about what's being said there at all.

 

[disciple Clint]

The rite is different from the Passover, only similar in that it involves food. It bears more resemblance to Jesus' practice of table fellowship, or the symposium of the Greeks.

In the ancient world, eating with someone could have a spiritual significance. That is why so much ink is spilled in the New Testament about Jesus eating with "sinners", and later Paul has to deal alot with who eats with who, and how.

"Therefore, Jesus celebrated a Passover, but His own, new Passover, on Holy Thursday evening, not the Passover of the old covenant celebrated on Friday evening. In the Passover of the old covenant, a one-year-old, unblemished, male lamb was sacrificed, roasted and eaten with unleavened bread. Note the Gospels made no mention of procuring or sharing a Passover lamb (which would not have been available until Friday afternoon when He is crucified). However, Jesus, sinless, is the new Passover Lamb. Even His bones were not broken on the cross (Jn 19:32ff). By His blood the new and everlasting covenant is made. By His sacrifice, a new Exodus takes place — freedom from the slavery of sin and the hope of entry into the promised land of heaven. Unlike the Passover lamb that was sacrificed and eaten, Jesus rose from the dead. While the Passover of the old covenant was eaten among family members with the father presiding, the new Passover is eaten among the members of the church with the Lord presiding. And, while the Passover of the old covenant focused on flesh and blood of the lamb and the Exodus event, the new Passover is a sharing the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Himself, and He commanded us, “Do this in remembrance of me.”


Another interesting point: The Passover of the old covenant involved the sharing of four cups of wine —first, the kiddush cup, or the cup of sanctification; second, the haggadah cup, or the cup of proclamation at which time the father recounts the Exodus event; third, the berakah cup, or blessing cup, drunk after the meal was finished; and fourth, the zebah todah cup, or the cup of thanksgiving at which time the Hallel (Psalms 113 – 118) was sung.


Consider the Last Supper: The Gospel of Luke recorded, “He did the same with the cup after eating, saying as He did so: ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you’” (Lk 22:20), indicating the berakah cup. And then, “when they had sung a hymn,” referring to the Hallel Psalms, Jesus and the apostles went out to the Garden of Gethsemane, where Our Lord prayed, “Father, if it is your will, let this cup pass from me; but not my will, but yours be done.” The fourth and final cup of Jesus’ Passover was drunk on the cross, when He died: “When Jesus had received the wine, He said, ‘It is finished’; and He bowed His head and delivered over His spirit” (Jn 19:30).


Pope Benedict wrote, “One thing emerges clearly from the entire tradition: Essentially, this farewell meal was not the old Passover, but the new one, which Jesus accomplished in this context. Even though the meal that Jesus shared with the Twelve was not a Passover meal according to the ritual prescriptions of Judaism, nevertheless, in retrospect, the inner connection of the whole event with Jesus’ death and Resurrection stood out clearly. It was Jesus’ Passover. And in this sense He both did and did not celebrate the Passover: The old rituals could not be carried out — when their time came, Jesus had already died. But He had given Himself, and thus He had truly celebrated the Passover with them. The old was not abolished; it was simply brought to its full meaning” (Jesus of Nazareth, p. 114). And how beautiful it is to know that Jesus’ Passover continues in our Holy Mass." How does the Last Supper relate to Passover? - Catholic Straight Answers

 

[disciple Clint]

It is more than a symbol, it is an effective sign of God's grace, meaning that it communicates what it represents. This is thoroughly biblical. The memorialist position is not.



A symbol only communicates something by bringing something to mind through human effort within ones imagination or subjectivity. But that would turn the sacrament into a human work, not a means of grace.

"Yeah, the purposes of the Lord's Supper, without question, the primary reference of the Lord's Supper is to the death of our Lord. We hold in our hands these precious symbols, the broken bread, symbolizing the body given, Christ's body, His real body, given for us, and the cup, representing His shed blood. So clearly the reference, the primary reference is to the death of Christ. And Paul in the most extensive teaching in the New Testament about the Lord's Supper, 1 Corinthians 11, gives very practical counsel about how to do this, what this should look like in the church, but also speaks about the purposes of the Lord's Supper.

So the primary purpose is this proclamation, "Do this in remembrance of Me," and as often as you do it, you proclaim the Lord's death. So the primary purpose of the Lord's Supper is really a proclamation, again, of the gospel, not so much to unbelievers as it is what a wonderful opportunity when we gather together as believers to preach the gospel to ourselves, not only this proclamation of Christ's death, but there's also this anticipatory purpose of the Lord's Supper. Remember, he said, "You proclaim the Lord's death until He comes," kind of picking up what Jesus said at the Last Supper, "I'm not going to eat this again until I eat it with you in the kingdom of heaven." And so we're looking back to Christ's death, but also looking forward in anticipation to what Christ's death purchased for us, this promise of life in God's presence.

And then I think in a piece that we cannot forget, so yes, proclamation, anticipation, but in the present, this is not so much in 1 Corinthians 11, as it is in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul talks about communion, participation with the Lord. And so there is this present communion, not in some unusually mysterious way, it is a communion of fellowship with Christ, with God in Christ, an experience of what Christ purchased for us, this close family table fellowship with God in Himself. That's the primary reference, I think, of the Lord's Supper.

Paul does add one other piece, which I think is important, in 1 Corinthians 10, this reference to our unity. He says, "Is there not one bread that you take," speaking of the unity of the body. And so not only does it function to point us, again, to Christ's death, but it points us to the unity of what Christ's death purchased, the body of Christ. We eat together. So these are the purposes, I believe, of the Lord's Supper." What Was the Symbolism of the Last Supper? Its Meaning and Significance

 

[disciple Clint]

So you're of the opinion He just didn't explain Himself very well,and thus confused almost everyone.

Attempting to put words in my mouth? NO what I said is very clear, no twisting please.

 

[disciple Clint]

Well you are talking about two different events, the event you are talking about had nothing to do with a pass over meal, the event I am talking about had everything to do with a pass over meal which is in itself a symbolic remembrance of the people being brought out of slavery and involved the death of a lamb very similar to our being brought out of slavery to sin and death through the death of Jesus, the Lamb of God. Everything that Jesus did at that event was very symbolic, the bread, the wine, a new covenant, the symbolism of the cups which also links up with His statements in the garden asking His Father to remove the cup, that would be the last cup, the bitter cup which he had yet to consume. There is a depth of information in the Bible and the events in it, do not just read over it, take time, reflect, link it, find what the message from God in its fullness actually is.

 

[Jipsah]

Attempting to put words in my mouth? NO what I said is very clear, no twisting please.

That was my inference, since you say that He meant that the bread and wine were symbols, but He obviously said that they were His Body and Blood. To me that means He didn't communicate well, as most Christians take His words literally.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am talking about had everything to do with a pass over meal which is in itself a symbolic remembrance of the people being brought out of slavery and involved the death of a lamb very similar to our being brought out of slavery to sin and death through the death of Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Is the Passover a symbolic remembrance?

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbour, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD's Passover.​

​

On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD-- a lasting ordinance.​

​

For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."​

​

Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down. Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. When you enter the land that the LORD will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony. And when your children ask you, 'What does this ceremony mean to you?' then tell them, 'It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.' " Then the people bowed down and worshiped. The Israelites did just what the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron.​

Exodus 12:1-28 NIV

 

[disciple Clint]

Is the Passover a symbolic remembrance?

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbour, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD's Passover.​

​

On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD-- a lasting ordinance.​

​

For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."​

​

Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down. Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. When you enter the land that the LORD will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony. And when your children ask you, 'What does this ceremony mean to you?' then tell them, 'It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.' " Then the people bowed down and worshiped. The Israelites did just what the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron.​

Exodus 12:1-28 NIV

I was not speaking about the original pass over meal, I was talking about the subsequent celebrations and recreations of that event.

 

[Philip_B]

Well you are talking about two different events, the event you are talking about had nothing to do with a pass over meal, the event I am talking about had everything to do with a pass over meal which is in itself a symbolic remembrance of the people being brought out of slavery and involved the death of a lamb very similar to our being brought out of slavery to sin and death through the death of Jesus, the Lamb of God. Everything that Jesus did at that event was very symbolic, the bread, the wine, a new covenant, the symbolism of the cups which also links up with His statements in the garden asking His Father to remove the cup, that would be the last cup, the bitter cup which he had yet to consume. There is a depth of information in the Bible and the events in it, do not just read over it, take time, reflect, link it, find what the message from God in its fullness actually is.

When you think about the Passover of the Jews, it was a sacred meal and involved recounting the Exodus and the journey out of Egypt. This rite ends with a clear statement 'Tonight we have come out of Egypt!' The force of this was in the present tense, and it is the sense of history becoming real in the present moment. The word that was used to describe this was Anamnesis. Interestingly Jesus is recorded using this very word.

The Institution of the Lord’s Supper​

When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. He said to them, ‘I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.’ Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.’ Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table. For the Son of Man is going as it has been determined, but woe to that one by whom he is betrayed!’ Then they began to ask one another which one of them it could be who would do this.​

Luke 22:14-23​

I think the English translation of anamnesis as remembrance, as in 'Do this in remembrance of me' has not helped us understand this passage, and Jesus' intent properly. The language of the liturgy is not English, Latin, or Greek, but rather 'bread and wine', and here in bread and wine the delivery of the New Israel from slavery to Sin is recounted in the present tense. We tend to see remembrance as casting our minds back to the things that were, where the real force of the word anamnesis is calling that history into the present reality.

 

[disciple Clint]

When you think about the Passover of the Jews, it was a sacred meal and involved recounting the Exodus and the journey out of Egypt. This rite ends with a clear statement 'Tonight we have come out of Egypt!' The force of this was in the present tense, and it is the sense of history becoming real in the present moment. The word that was used to describe this was Anamnesis. Interestingly Jesus is recorded using this very word.

The Institution of the Lord’s Supper​

When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. He said to them, ‘I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.’ Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.’ Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table. For the Son of Man is going as it has been determined, but woe to that one by whom he is betrayed!’ Then they began to ask one another which one of them it could be who would do this.​

Luke 22:14-23​

I think the English translation of anamnesis as remembrance, as in 'Do this in remembrance of me' has not helped us understand this passage, and Jesus' intent properly. The language of the liturgy is not English, Latin, or Greek, but rather 'bread and wine', and here in bread and wine the delivery of the New Israel from slavery to Sin is recounted in the present tense. We tend to see remembrance as casting our minds back to the things that were, where the real force of the word anamnesis is calling that history into the present reality.

Strong's Concordance
anamnésis: remembrance
Original Word: ἀνάμνησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anamnésis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-am'-nay-sis)
Definition: remembrance
Usage: a recalling, remembrance, memory.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 364 anámnēsis (from 363 /anamimnḗskō, "bring to mind") – properly, deliberate recollection, done to better appreciate the effects (intended results) of what happened; active, self-prompted recollection especially as a memorial (memorial sacrifice).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from anamimnéskó
Definition
remembrance
NASB Translation
remembrance (3), reminder (1).

 

[Philip_B]

Strong's Concordance
anamnésis: remembrance
Original Word: ἀνάμνησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anamnésis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-am'-nay-sis)
Definition: remembrance
Usage: a recalling, remembrance, memory.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 364 anámnēsis (from 363 /anamimnḗskō, "bring to mind") – properly, deliberate recollection, done to better appreciate the effects (intended results) of what happened; active, self-prompted recollection especially as a memorial (memorial sacrifice).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from anamimnéskó
Definition
remembrance
NASB Translation
remembrance (3), reminder (1).

my point exactly

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I was not speaking about the original pass over meal, I was talking about the subsequent celebrations and recreations of that event.

I see, yet the subsequent Passover meals in Israel all were the same as the first in their ceremonial aspects. The meal wasn't a ceremony to remember the tenth plague nor to remember the exodus, even though both are called to mind in it, it was something more.

 

[Erose]

Yes to the first question, though I don't believe it necessarily occupies a particular space.

I obviously don't accept a kind of Capernaitic eating (to borrow the term that Lutherans use, we do not eat pieces of Christ, that are consumed as ordinary food would be). But neither would I say that we don't receive Jesus' body and blood in the sacrament.

Thank you for the reply. I must say that there is some strange views you Lutherans have over the Blessed Sacrament, but thanks for sharing them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for the reply. I must say that there is some strange views you Lutherans have over the Blessed Sacrament, but thanks for sharing them.

We don't have a "view" at all, really. We just accept "This is my body". We don't think about how that is so in a philosophical way, we just believe it.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I think the English translation of anamnesis as remembrance, as in 'Do this in remembrance of me' has not helped us understand this passage, and Jesus' intent properly. The language of the liturgy is not English, Latin, or Greek, but rather 'bread and wine', and here in bread and wine the delivery of the New Israel from slavery to Sin is recounted in the present tense. We tend to see remembrance as casting our minds back to the things that were, where the real force of the word anamnesis is calling that history into the present reality.

Yup, and why the Jewish Passover reads "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and the L‑rd, our G‑d, took us out from there with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm. If the Holy One, blessed be He, had not taken our fathers out of Egypt, then we, our children and our children's children would have remained enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt. Even if all of us were wise, all of us understanding, all of us knowing the Torah, we would still be obligated to discuss the exodus from Egypt; and everyone who discusses the exodus from Egypt at length is praiseworthy."

It is not only about the Jews that were led out of Egypt, but also that present-day Jews are identifying with Passover as an eternal event.

I can't remember who said it but that there is only a single Eucharist, and it is in the Orthodox Liturgy that we participate in the Eternal. It is not only the Last Supper, but also a present day communion with all partakers, but also a foreshadowing of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Revelation.