Some object to Transubstantiation; but what do the objectors think it means?

[2PhiloVoid]

Some object to Transubstantiation; but what do the objectors think it means?

Here's a chance to expound on the theme, explain its alleged errors, offer your own definition of the word, and establish the credibility of your stance. Have at it.

I don't object to Transubstantiation, I just don't believe it's real. That's all...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

St. Francis seems to have had something more like a Lutheran doctrine of the sacrament:



Note the words "ordinary bread".

Modern Roman Catholics have sometimes mangled his words when quoting this letter, but for Francis, who was a mystic who spoke of nature as "brother" and "sister", matter was diaphanous to the divine, and did not require transmutation into something else to communicate God's grace.

I am so happy you brought St Francis in. I have been back into his life and spirituality lately. I agree, in his view all creation manifests the creator. But sacred scripture and the sacraments have special place without need of explanation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Scripture says the bread and wine of the Eucharist are the body and blood of Christ. But Scripture doesn't say the bread and wine stop being bread and wine. Thus that bit, the change of substance from bread to flesh and wine to blood, amounts to philosophical speculation. There is clearly something that has changed, as what was bread and wine is now the body and blood of Christ for us; but the emphasis isn't the change nor should one be obligated to have faith in philosophical speculations. Thus what is to be believed is that it is the very body and blood of Christ; but that it is no longer bread and wine is mere speculation. God has not seen fit to explain to us how the bread and wine are, in the Supper, the body and blood of Christ, only that they are.

This is why Lutherans reject Transubstantiation. We simply do not believe that a Christian can be obligated to believe in what amounts to human opinion and philosophical speculation.

It's entirely possible that Transubstantiation is true, but God hasn't revealed that to us and so it remains speculation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

St. Francis seems to have had something more like a Lutheran doctrine of the sacrament:



Note the words "ordinary bread".

Modern Roman Catholics have sometimes mangled his words when quoting this letter, but for Francis, who was a mystic who spoke of nature as "brother" and "sister", matter was diaphanous to the divine, and did not require transmutation into something else to communicate God's grace.

I was just reading his Admonitions today and he makes an analogy. Those who did not recognize the divinity of Jesus but could only recognize his flesh are similar to those who can only see the bread and wine and are blind to the divinity.

8All those who saw the Lord Jesus according to the humanity, therefore, and did not see and believe according to the Spirit and the Divinity that He is the true Son of God were condemned. 9Now in the same way, all who see the sacrament sanctified by the words of the Lord upon the altar at the hands of the priest in the form of bread and wine, and who do not see and believe according to the Spirit and the Divinity that it is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, are condemned. 10[This] is affirmed by the Most High Himself Who says, This is my Body and the Blood of my new covenant [which will be shed for many] (Mk 14:22, 24); 11and Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life (Jn 6:55). 12It is the Spirit of the Lord, therefore, That lives in Its faithful, That receives the Body and Blood of the Lord. 13All others who do not share in this same Spirit and presume to receive Him eat and drink judgment on themselves (1Cor 11:29).

https://www.prairiestfrancis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/28-ADMONITIONS-OF-SAINT-FRANCIS-OF-ASSISI.pdf

 

[Valletta]

I was just reading his Admonitions today and he makes an analogy. Those who did not recognize the divinity of Jesus but could only recognize his flesh are similar to those who can only see the bread and wine and are blind to the divinity.

8All those who saw the Lord Jesus according to the humanity, therefore, and did not see and believe according to the Spirit and the Divinity that He is the true Son of God were condemned. 9Now in the same way, all who see the sacrament sanctified by the words of the Lord upon the altar at the hands of the priest in the form of bread and wine, and who do not see and believe according to the Spirit and the Divinity that it is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, are condemned. 10[This] is affirmed by the Most High Himself Who says, This is my Body and the Blood of my new covenant [which will be shed for many] (Mk 14:22, 24); 11and Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life (Jn 6:55). 12It is the Spirit of the Lord, therefore, That lives in Its faithful, That receives the Body and Blood of the Lord. 13All others who do not share in this same Spirit and presume to receive Him eat and drink judgment on themselves (1Cor 11:29).

https://www.prairiestfrancis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/28-ADMONITIONS-OF-SAINT-FRANCIS-OF-ASSISI.pdf

Saint Francis believed that the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Saint Francis believed that the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

I should have continued.
19 As He revealed Himself to the holy apostles in true flesh, so He reveals Himself to us now in sacred bread. 20And as they saw only His flesh by an insight of their flesh, yet believed that He was God as they contemplated Him with their spiritual eyes, 21let us, as we see bread and wine with our bodily eyes, see and firmly believe that they are His most holy Body and Blood living and true. 22And in this way the Lord is always with His faithful, as He Himself says: Behold I am with you until the end of the age (Mt 28:20).

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't object to Transubstantiation, I just don't believe it's real. That's all...

If we take substance to be the meaning of a thing, then the Reformed or Lutheran understanding of the sacrament really isn't all that different.

 

[FireDragon76]

I should have continued.
19 As He revealed Himself to the holy apostles in true flesh, so He reveals Himself to us now in sacred bread. 20And as they saw only His flesh by an insight of their flesh, yet believed that He was God as they contemplated Him with their spiritual eyes, 21let us, as we see bread and wine with our bodily eyes, see and firmly believe that they are His most holy Body and Blood living and true. 22And in this way the Lord is always with His faithful, as He Himself says: Behold I am with you until the end of the age (Mt 28:20).

He's not expressing the meaning of the sacrament in aristotilian terms.

There isn't anything that Francis has said that is incompatible with the Lutheran doctrine of the sacrament.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

I object to it because the doctrine states that the bread and wine cease to exist, and are instead replaced only with an appearance of bread and wine. This abolishes the nature of a sacrament, because the nature of a sacrament involves real physical creatures participating as signs with what they represent.

Ditch Transubstantiation, and You Ditch God

Arguments against transubstantiation based on appearance seem to work equally well against the incarnation of the Son of God.

www.catholic.com

 

[Dan Perez]

Some object to Transubstantiation; but what do the objectors think it means?

Here's a chance to expound on the theme, explain its alleged errors, offer your own definition of the word, and establish the credibility of your stance. Have at it.

I will comment if you give a verse that you use in the BIBLE >>

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't object to Transubstantiation, I just don't believe it's real. That's all...

I can respect that position even though I do not share it.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Let's take wooden table.
Is its substance that of wood that happens to be in the shape of a table?
Or is its substance that of a table that happens to be made of wood?

If its substance is wood, how do we define it but by the characteristics of wood?