Some contend against Blessed Mary

SabbathBlessings

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And I disagree, so, I pray to my brothers and sisters in the faith to pray for me to the Lord our God. But I understand "pray" to mean "ask" and to not pretend that "pray" is a "special word for exclusive use in regard to asking God". I ask my friends to pray for me and I ask the saint in heaven to pray for me, and I ask, specifically, Blessed Mary, the mother of God, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
That’s fine if you disagree I just ask that you quote me correctly. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Xeno.of.athens

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Yep, Jesus did teach us to pray for others, so did Paul. That's why my post said:
Jesus taught us to pray to God and scripture says we should not go to a mediator but instead go directly to Jesus Christ.​
Jessu taught us to pray for others:​
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,Matthew 5:44​

bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.Luke 6:28​

Saint Paul taught, by example, Christians to pray for others:​
while they long for you and pray for you because of the surpassing grace of God that he has given you.2 Corinthians 9:14​

For we rejoice when we are weak and you are strong. This is what we pray for, that you may become perfect.2 Corinthians 13:9​

At the same time pray for us as well that God will open to us a door for the word, that we may declare the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison,Colossians 4:3​

Beloved, pray for us.1 Thessalonians 5:25​

To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfil by his power every good resolve and work of faith,2 Thessalonians 1:11​

Finally, brothers and sisters, pray for us, so that the word of the Lord may spread rapidly and be glorified everywhere, just as it is among you,2 Thessalonians 3:1​

Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.Hebrews 13:18​

When we pray for one another, we mediate. It is an error to interpret 1 Timothy 2:5 in isolation from its context because its context is an exhortation to pray and to intercede for one another.​
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

1 Timothy 2:1-6​
Without its context your posts treat verse 5 as if it forbids intercession for others. As if having Christ as the only mediator who gave himself as a ransom for [the sins of] all, forbids Christians interceding for others, acting as mediators in prayer on behalf of others. The mediation of Christ, here in this passage, is that of the Saviour in his sacrifice for the sins of his people, and in this there can be no other mediator for no other sacrifice has been made for the sins of all. Yet the very same passage urgers that supplications, prayers, intercessions be made for all men, this is nothing less than to urge mediation in prayer for all men.​
 
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BobRyan

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Some contend that Mary was a sinner like any other human being.

Since the Bible says "all have sinned" and since the Bible tells us that Mary calls God "her Savior".
And since Romans 5 tells us that all have sinned and so - all died.

But NOT because they are angry at Mary or mad at Mary or wish to oppose Mary.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Since the Bible says "all have sinned" and since the Bible tells us that Mary calls God "her Savior".
And since Romans 5 tells us that all have sinned and so - all died.
All have sinned, but not Jesus. all have sinned so all die, but not Jesus - he died but not because he sinned.
Where one is excepted another may be excepted by the grace of God.
 
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BobRyan

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All have sinned, but not Jesus.
I agree - Jesus was God incarnate - God the Son that became the Son of Man. What is your point?
all have sinned so all die, but not Jesus - he died but not because he sinned.
Agree. God the Son became a man and was the spotless atoning sacrifice for "our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2
Where one is excepted another may be excepted by the grace of God.
Only if that other person is also God incarnate in human flesh. A lot of Protestants don't view Mary as God incarnate. But that is not because we have any contention against Mary. My own children are also not "God incarnate in human flesh" but that does not mean I am in contention against them either.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Only if that other person is also God incarnate in human flesh.
That's just bad logic; there is nothing in scripture to suggest that creatures cannot be sinless. The good angels are sinless, and they are not God.
 
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BobRyan

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That's just bad logic; there is nothing in scripture to suggest that creatures cannot be sinless. The good angels are sinless, and they are not God.
That is bad logic - Paul says in Rom 3 (long after Mary had lived) that none were sinless.. "all have sinned". Right there is where you may have needed an "all except Mary" statement.

In Rom 5 - Paul again says all descendants of Adam sinned... (note that Adam was not Christ's Father because of the incarnation line not allowing an Earthly Father for Christ).. you needed another "except for Mary".

Good angels are not humans, they are not descendents of Adam. The context for both Rom 3 and Rom 5 is "humans on Earth" -- obviously.

But NONE of the facts above are given as "contention against Mary" to simply admit she is human, a descendant of the fallen Adam, born with a sinful nature - calling Christ her savior from sin.
 
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Valletta

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That is bad logic - Paul says in Rom 3 (long after Mary had lived) that none were sinless.. "all have sinned". Right there is where you may have needed an "all except Mary" statement.

In Rom 5 - Paul again says all descendants of Adam sinned... (note that Adam was not Christ's Father because of the incarnation line not allowing an Earthly Father for Christ).. you needed another "except for Mary".

Good angels are not humans, they are not descendents of Adam. The context for both Rom 3 and Rom 5 is "humans on Earth" -- obviously.

But NONE of the facts above are given as "contention against Mary" to simply admit she is human, a descendant of the fallen Adam, born with a sinful nature - calling Christ her savior from sin.
Either "all" means each individual or it does not. Catholics do not believe Jesus sinned, it does not say all except for Jesus. Catholics do not believe little babies have sinned, it does not say except for little babies. So if you believe that Jesus sinned, if you believe that little babies have sinned, if you believe that severely mentally handicapped people have sinned, I can understand why you believe Mary sinned. It is rather obvious that "all" is a manner of speaking, that these passages were not meant to address Mary or Jesus or little babies.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Paul says in Rom 3 (long after Mary had lived) that none were sinless.. "all have sinned".
Blessed Mary was still living when Saint Paul wrote Romans, and Saint Paul makes no exceptions in the statement to which you're referring, he doesn't even mention that all (except the Lord, Jesus Christ) have sinned. So, if you demand Mary's inclusion because the word "all" is there then the same word, "all", would (in error) include Jesus, but we know that it does not include Jesus because of statements made elsewhere and similarly we conclude it does not include Blessed Mary because of statements made elsewhere - in Tradition and in extra-biblical Christian writings.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

Paul says in Rom 3 (long after Mary had lived) that none were sinless.. "all have sinned".

Blessed Mary was still living when Saint Paul wrote Romans,
No NT author gives the date of Mary's death. Paul is writing at time when she would be around 70 years old so when he says "ALL have sinned" he presumably knew that Mary was in that group --- of descendants of Adam born with a sinful nature where she herself admits that Christ is also her savior from sin -- not just our savior from sin.

BTW the earlier this statement is in the life of Mary where Paul says "all in fact have sinned" the worse it is for the case you are trying to make. One cannot sin and then later in life re-write their history so that they never sinned.
and Saint Paul makes no exceptions in the statement to which you're referring, he doesn't even mention that all (except the Lord, Jesus Christ) have sinned.

But he DOES specifically single out Jesus when he says this in Heb 4:15
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Paul makes no such "like us yet without sin" statement for Mary.

This is not a case of Protestants contending with Mary when they admit to these Bible details.
 
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BobRyan

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Either "all" means each individual or it does not. Catholics do not believe Jesus sinned, it does not say all except for Jesus.

Paul says "except for Jesus" Heb 4:15
What he does not say is "like us - but without sin" for Mary.
 
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Valletta

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Paul says "except for Jesus" Heb 4:15
What he does not say is "like us - but without sin" for Mary.
There you go. Paul says: 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning. Heb 4:15 RSVCE
Catholics indeed maintain Jesus is without sin, therefore "all" has an exception. Catholics believe that little babies have not sinned, so "all" has more exceptions. When the Holy Spirit tells us that "all of Judea" went out to see John the Baptist, does that mean every pagan, every Roman soldier, every invalid or person dying, and every tiny infant went? Did the Roman soldiers get disciplined, is this what we are to assume? Is it a manner of speaking or a commentary on the pagans and the dying and the babies?
 
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BobRyan

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There you go. Paul says: 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning. Heb 4:15 RSVCE
"yet without sin"

Heb 4:15 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. NASB

Heb 4:15 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. NKJV

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (KJV)


Catholics indeed maintain Jesus is without sin,
So does Paul in Heb 4:15

and in 2Cor 5
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ is always the perfect, spotless lamb of God in the NT. No other person is presented that way by NT authors.

Noticing this Bible detail is not a case of Protestants in contention against Mary.

(the rest of your post seems to arguing against your own "Christ without sin" statement above - so I will leave it to you to resolve it)
 
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Valletta

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"yet without sin"

Heb 4:15 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. NASB

Heb 4:15 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. NKJV

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (KJV)



So does Paul in Heb 4:15

and in 2Cor 5
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ is always the perfect, spotless lamb of God in the NT. No other person is presented that way by NT authors.

Noticing this Bible detail is not a case of Protestants in contention against Mary.

(the rest of your post seems to arguing against your own "Christ without sin" statement above - so I will leave it to you to resolve it)
I've always maintained Christ is without sin, so obviously when "all have sinned" is used it does not mean every individual. It is very simple. You haven't said whether your religion maintains little babies have sinned. Do you think they have?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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No NT author gives the date of Mary's death.
Do you mean no NT text gives a date; it is possible that a NT author, John for example, gave more that is not included in the canonical books.
 
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Jipsah

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I see that as a pointless distinction in semantics. The point is that we recognize her blessed contribution to redemptive history the same way we recognize John's ministry. She isn't anything special in any other sense.
Somehow I think that being the God Bearer, who bore and gave birth to God Himself, is kind of a big deal. Sometimes it seems to me that Protestants are so frightened of being though Catholic that they feel it necessary to try and trivialize anything they view as a Catholic belief. "Yeah, God chose the Blessed Virgin (except you can't call her that, too Catholic) to bear God the Son, and sent the archangel Gabriel, His own herald, to tell her about it,and she did in fact bear God the Son in her body, and gave birth to Him, and nourished Him at her breast, and was in every respect His mother up to the moment of His death, but so what? Ain't no big deal, right? Nothing special atall. I find that idea ridiculous. It's how I was taught as a child, but with study and age I've become ever more persuaded that it's simply ridiculous. No other human being has ever been given such an unimaginable blessing. The whole "being the mother of God isn't any big deal " schtick simply betrays a lack of understanding of what happened. God Himself was born as a human being, and the Blessed Virgin was the instrument whom He chose to be His mother.

So "she isn't anything special". Good grief.

I've related this before, but I think it fits here. A church brother of mine began hosting a Tuesday night Bible study. A neighbor of his joined from time to time. One evening after we'd studied we were sitting talking, and the neighbor began relating how he witnessed to Muslims at his workplace. He said one of them he'd talked to said that he (the Muslim) thought it was blasphemous to worship Jesus, as only Allah was worthy of worship. My friend said he told the Muslim that we didn't worship Jesus since He wasn't God but merely the Son of god. It took a few seconds for my church pal and I to regain our composure enough to try and explain to the neighbor that yeah, in actual fact we really did, or were supposed to, believe that Jesus was in fact God Himself in the flesh. Neighbor was shocked, no one had ever told him that in clear and direct terms before.

I think a good many Protestants are in the same shape as the neighbor, which is why they can't fathom the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, and are so horrified at her being referred to as the Mother of God - they don't really believe that our Lord Christ is God Himself. They don't really understand the Incarnation. They know that Christ is our Savior, and The Son, but they tend to see only God the Father as GOD. And so they don't think that Mary having borne and mothered Jesus was any big deal.

There's other stuff that goes along with not understanding the idea of the Incarnatrion. Being dismissive of the Blessed Virgin is just one. The belief that all Scripture, old and new testaments, is of equal importance, is another. If Jesus is "just" the Son of God, then the Gospels aren't necessarily any more important than Genesis or Ecclesiastes. It explains why they'll tell new Christians to read the OT first, because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Hence, in their minds, the Gospels may actually be less important that the Law and Prophets, because they come later in The Good Book.

There are other things that hint at a vast misunderstanding of Who our Lord actually is, but it's late and I'm tired and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this and right now I simply don't care. "He that is boneheaded, let him be boneheaded still" -- Jipsah 1:1
 
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