Some contend against Blessed Mary

Xeno.of.athens

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This seems to be putting Mary as a mediator
My brothers and sisters in the Catholic Faith intercede for me in prayer, they mediate as I do also on their behalf.

Yet there is only one mediator between mankind and God in the matter of salvation, only one who was able to redeem mankind. That is what the scripture that your post alludes to only in part. The full passage is this:
First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people; for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct. This is good and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to know the truth. For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, and that is why I was sent as an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying; I am telling the truth! In every church service I want the men to pray, men who are dedicated to God and can lift up their hands in prayer without anger or argument.​
1 Timothy 2:1-8
 
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Fervent

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Somehow I think that being the God Bearer, who bore and gave birth to God Himself, is kind of a big deal. Sometimes it seems to me that Protestants are so frightened of being though Catholic that they feel it necessary to try and trivialize anything they view as a Catholic belief. "Yeah, God chose the Blessed Virgin (except you can't call her that, too Catholic) to bear God the Son, and sent the archangel Gabriel, His own herald, to tell her about it,and she did in fact bear God the Son in her body, and gave birth to Him, and nourished Him at her breast, and was in every respect His mother up to the moment of His death, but so what? Ain't no big deal, right? Nothing special atall. I find that idea ridiculous. It's how I was taught as a child, but with study and age I've become ever more persuaded that it's simply ridiculous. No other human being has ever been given such an unimaginable blessing. The whole "being the mother of God isn't any big deal " schtick simply betrays a lack of understanding of what happened. God Himself was born as a human being, and the Blessed Virgin was the instrument whom He chose to be His mother.

So "she isn't anything special". Good grief.

I've related this before, but I think it fits here. A church brother of mine began hosting a Tuesday night Bible study. A neighbor of his joined from time to time. One evening after we'd studied we were sitting talking, and the neighbor began relating how he witnessed to Muslims at his workplace. He said one of them he'd talked to said that he (the Muslim) thought it was blasphemous to worship Jesus, as only Allah was worthy of worship. My friend said he told the Muslim that we didn't worship Jesus since He wasn't God but merely the Son of god. It took a few seconds for my church pal and I to regain our composure enough to try and explain to the neighbor that yeah, in actual fact we really did, or were supposed to, believe that Jesus was in fact God Himself in the flesh. Neighbor was shocked, no one had ever told him that in clear and direct terms before.

I think a good many Protestants are in the same shape as the neighbor, which is why they can't fathom the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, and are so horrified at her being referred to as the Mother of God - they don't really believe that our Lord Christ is God Himself. They don't really understand the Incarnation. They know that Christ is our Savior, and The Son, but they tend to see only God the Father as GOD. And so they don't think that Mary having borne and mothered Jesus was any big deal.

There's other stuff that goes along with not understanding the idea of the Incarnatrion. Being dismissive of the Blessed Virgin is just one. The belief that all Scripture, old and new testaments, is of equal importance, is another. If Jesus is "just" the Son of God, then the Gospels aren't necessarily any more important than Genesis or Ecclesiastes. It explains why they'll tell new Christians to read the OT first, because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Hence, in their minds, the Gospels may actually be less important that the Law and Prophets, because they come later in The Good Book.

There are other things that hint at a vast misunderstanding of Who our Lord actually is, but it's late and I'm tired and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this and right now I simply don't care. "He that is boneheaded, let him be boneheaded still" -- Jipsah 1:1
I think there's an important distinction that has to be made here, as there is danger both in undermining Mary as the Theotokos on the one hand and practices and doctrine that cross the line to outright worship. While we can set theoretical limits of things like dulia, hyperdulia, and latria the practical aspects can make this more difficult. Honor is due to Mary, but we must make clear that the honor due her is because of God's selection of her to bear Christ and that honoring her as Theotokos is, in fact, honoring Christ as God incarnate. Where this gets muddled up is it is hard to distinguish practical differences between worship and veneration, and Mary is often ascribed merit apart from her role as Theotokos. The confusion makes even orthodox Marian veneration potentially problematic, especially when introduced to cultures that are heavy on goddess worship where the old practices directed at their high goddesses are transferred to Marian practice. Titles like "queen of heaven" and other titles that direct attention to Mary herself, rather than her special grace of having borne Christ are especially problematic. So there are reasons for caution within acribing virtue to Mary, especially if we divorce it from her relationship to Christ.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Titles like "queen of heaven" and other titles that direct attention to Mary herself
The title "Queen of heaven" points to Christ the King; Mary is queen mother because she is Jesus' mother. The title would not be true were Blessed Mary not the mother of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
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Justin_Mary

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Honor is due to Mary, but we must make clear that the honor due her is because of God's selection of her to bear Christ and that honoring her as Theotokos is, in fact, honoring Christ as God incarnate.
There is some truth to that, but it seems to be missing something.

True, the Title Theotokos honors our Blessed Mother as the God bearer. But she is also our Mother & love is due her that as well.

If I knew you, I'm sure I'd love you as you are a child of God & my brother through Christ. But your children (if you were blessed with them) would love you as their father/mother (sorry, I can't tell) before they "know" God (whose fatherhood you share) as Father.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit has inspired the Church to lay other titles on her; Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Redeemed, the new Eve, the new Ark of the Covenant, the seat of Wisdom, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, etc...

God has one Son. It is through that Son that we are sons, through his Mystical Body, the Church. That Son has one Mother. Your Mother & my Mother through the Church.
 
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renniks

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Yet, God inspired Blessed Mary to say " behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed." So, scripture tells Christians to call Mary blessed, and we do.
Blessings are something God gives. Mary wasn't glorifying herself and we should not either.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Blessings are something God gives. Mary wasn't glorifying herself and we should not either.
Didn't Melchizedek bless Abraham? And Isaac blessed Jacob.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I don't see the connection.
Both are examples of one human being blessing another; examples where "Blessings are something God gives." is not exactly accurate.
 
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renniks

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Both are examples of one human being blessing another; examples where "Blessings are something God gives." is not exactly accurate.
They are blessings given by father figures, and in context we were talking about a blessing from God, that Mary was chosen for a task.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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They are blessings given by father figures, and in context we were talking about a blessing from God, that Mary was chosen for a task.
Curiosity makes me ask: "why do you attempt to justify a mistake? Would it not be better to accept that a mistake was made and correct it?"
 
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prodromos

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JoeT

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I think there's an important distinction that has to be made here, as there is danger both in undermining Mary as the Theotokos on the one hand and practices and doctrine that cross the line to outright worship. While we can set theoretical limits of things like dulia, hyperdulia, and latria the practical aspects can make this more difficult. Honor is due to Mary, but we must make clear that the honor due her is because of God's selection of her to bear Christ and that honoring her as Theotokos is, in fact, honoring Christ as God incarnate. Where this gets muddled up is it is hard to distinguish practical differences between worship and veneration, and Mary is often ascribed merit apart from her role as Theotokos. The confusion makes even orthodox Marian veneration potentially problematic, especially when introduced to cultures that are heavy on goddess worship where the old practices directed at their high goddesses are transferred to Marian practice. Titles like "queen of heaven" and other titles that direct attention to Mary herself, rather than her special grace of having borne Christ are especially problematic. So there are reasons for caution within ascribing virtue to Mary, especially if we divorce it from her relationship to Christ.

Is there any objection to honoring Jesus Christ as "King of the Jews". Did Jesus not claim to be King, you honor him for that? Isn't Christ King of heaven and earth? If you honor Christ as King, then wouldn't Mary be the Mother of the King, more commonly called Queen or Queen Mother in antiquity? Didn't the queen of earthly kingdom's have a role in government? Claiming to know your King, then why deny His mother her rightful place as Queen, unless of course you only "say" Christ is King, but don't really believe it.

With regard to confusion with goddess, are your beliefs in Christ so weak you would deny the woman that bore the Personification of your salvation when witnessing to others? Do you hold back telling truths of Christ because it might be "problematic"? The Gospel is a lot stranger than the Mary's role in your salvation - without her there wouldn't be salvation.

JoeT
 
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Fervent

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Is there any objection to honoring Jesus Christ as "King of the Jews". Did Jesus not claim to be King, you honor him for that? Isn't Christ King of heaven and earth? If you honor Christ as King, then wouldn't Mary be the Mother of the King, more commonly called Queen or Queen Mother in antiquity? Didn't the queen of earthly kingdom's have a role in government? Claiming to know your King, then why deny His mother her rightful place as Queen, unless of course you only "say" Christ is King, but don't really believe it.

With regard to confusion with goddess, are your beliefs in Christ so weak you would deny the woman that bore the Personification of your salvation when witnessing to others? Do you hold back telling truths of Christ because it might be "problematic"? The Gospel is a lot stranger than the Mary's role in your salvation - without her there wouldn't be salvation.

JoeT
I take my cues from Christ, who when Mary was looking for Him said "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except those who do the law?" Or when a woman cried out about the womb who bore Him being blessed replied. "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."

Mary is not "queen of heaven" and naming her such seems ignorant to the one place where the Bible mentions a "queen of heaven." Glory belongs to God and God alone.
 
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JoeT

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I take my cues from Christ, who when Mary was looking for Him said "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except those who do the law?"
That's funny I take my cues from Christ also, yet magnified through Mary. Her soul magnifies the Lord. [Cf. Luke 1:46]. What an insult to the men in the Synagogue, he called them a low life mother! Taking this verse as a slight or insult to Christ's mother would dishonor every man in the Synagogue, not to mention His Mother. The Catholic understanding is that every man in the synagogue could be as holy as His mother.

Or when a woman cried out about the womb who bore Him being blessed replied. "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."
Here again, Christ is affirming the woman's comment, Mary was indeed blessed among women as we heard in Luke 1:28. Now which way do you want it, is she blessed or is she not blessed?
Mary is not "queen of heaven" and naming her such seems ignorant to the one place where the Bible mentions a "queen of heaven." Glory belongs to God and God alone.
Excuse me for reminding you that if we call Jesus Christ "King" of heaven and earth, then the mother of the king is Queen or Queen Mother. It is her rightful title just as Christ's title is King. Dishonor one and you dishonor the other.

JoeT
 
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BobRyan

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My brothers and sisters in the Catholic Faith intercede for me in prayer, they mediate as I do also on their behalf.
Even the Catholic church states you are not allowed to "pray to them" until they die. So we all ask friends to pray for us - (that is not the difference between Catholic and non-Catholic groups).

The difference is in praying to the dead. Which is not in the Bible and which you are not doing when you go to a friend in church and ask them to pray for you.
 
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BobRyan

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That's just bad logic; there is nothing in scripture to suggest that creatures cannot be sinless.
Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Rom 3 "There is NONE righteous - no not one"
Mary calls Jesus her savior - but Jesus does not call Himself his savior and does not call Mary his savior - and neither does anyone else in the Bible
The good angels are sinless, and they are not God.
And they were not descended from fallen Adam
Rom 5 makes the point "all sinned" because of Adam as descendants of Adam. Angels cannot claim to be descended from Adam
 
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Fervent

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That's funny I take my cues from Christ also, yet magnified through Mary. Her soul magnifies the Lord. [Cf. Luke 1:46]. What an insult to the men in the Synagogue, he called them a low life mother! Taking this verse as a slight or insult to Christ's mother would dishonor every man in the Synagogue, not to mention His Mother. The Catholic understanding is that every man in the synagogue could be as holy as His mother.


Here again, Christ is affirming the woman's comment, Mary was indeed blessed among women as we heard in Luke 1:28. Now which way do you want it, is she blessed or is she not blessed?

Excuse me for reminding you that if we call Jesus Christ "King" of heaven and earth, then the mother of the king is Queen or Queen Mother. It is her rightful title just as Christ's title is King. Dishonor one and you dishonor the other.

JoeT
Mary magnifies Christ? As if He's insufficient on His own? Wow.
 
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BobRyan

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Either "all" means each individual or it does not. Catholics do not believe Jesus sinned, it does not say all except for Jesus.
Indeed it does... Rom 5 points out that those who descend from Adam all sinned - Christ's Father was not Joseph - it was God
Catholics do not believe little babies have sinned
Mary did not die as a baby. Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying babies do not have a sinful nature and do not need the gospel??
 
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BobRyan

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Paul says "except for Jesus" Heb 4:15
What he does not say is "like us - but without sin" for Mary.
There you go. Paul says: 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning. Heb 4:15 RSVCE
A good example of what we do not find said about Mary.

In fact in Mark 3 we see Mary join in with Jesus' brothers claiming he had lost His senses and needed to cease ministry.
Catholics indeed maintain Jesus is without sin, therefore "all" has an exception.
No sense debating that one part where we already agree.
 
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