Some claim Jesus had faith

[Saint Steven]

Seems as if you are WoF-like.

You are conflating three unrelated items:

1. The hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ.
2. Adopting a modalistic (Sabellian) view of Jesus Christ
3. The command of Jesus to the Disciples.

Are you claiming that Jesus did his miracles in his deity, not in his humanity?

Saint Steven said: ↑
And I believe the miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise how could he expect us to do miracles?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

 

[JohnT]

How is the "hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ" during his pre-resurrection earthy ministry scriptural given Philippians 2:7-9?

The version you quote gives an inaccurate impression.

Here is something closer to the meaning of the Greek:

Philippians 2: 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In other words, it is not as formerly believed that the kenosis is an "emptying" of the Deity of Jesus; rather, it is an adding unto his Deity a second, human nature

Where does Saint Steven adopt a modalistic view of Jesus Christ?

I quoted the passage exactly; here it is a second time:

Saint Steven said: ↑
As I understand it, Jesus didn't heal anyone by virtue of his own deity (which he willingly laid aside). God was healing the people through the humanity of Jesus. Thus demonstrating that God can heal through us as well.

Matthew 10:8 is not an isolated verse - those actions (or signs) were associated with the preaching of the Gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, restated as part of the Great Commission (Mark 16:14-18), and put in practice throughout the book of Acts.

Everything past verse 7 in Mark 16 is highly suspect. Are you one of those people who, when sending invitations to church dinners, etc include BYOR on the bottom? It means Bring Your Own Rattler (sarcasm)

I never used the word "isolated". Are you then attempting to say that the commandment that Jesus gave to the Disciples as He sent them out is universally applicable? Doing that is indeed out of context.

If the Great Commission as written (Mark 16:14-18) no longer applies in 2020, then maybe Luke 18:8 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth does.

In neither instance have you quoted the Great Commission. That is found in Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Nor is that above the Great Commission

 

[JohnT]

In my experience those who claim a verse is out-of-context open up the context wide enough to make it appear to say what they WANT it to say. Thus completely disregarding what the verse plainly says on its own.

Sorry, but your "experience" is inadequate. I can say that because you are attempting to make a unified document from different events from different places. It is a patchwork quilt of unrelated verses. The Bible does not read like that. The Qur'an does, but that is an entirely different matter.

Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of the word "context"?

You may not be aware of this example of how not to use Scripture, but using your "patchwork quilt theology, it is possible to misuse the Bible to falsely justify suicide. It begins with "Judas hanged himself..."

 

[JohnT]

Saint Steven said: ↑
And I believe the miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise how could he expect us to do miracles?

That is indeed a modalistic or Sabellian statement.

For your information:

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

from https://www.theopedia.com/modalism

There never was a time that Jesus was not 100% God. Nor was there ever a time where Jesus was not 100% human.

 

[JohnT]

Saint Steven said: ↑
It's not a gift if you worked to earn it. It then becomes an obligation to the "employer" to pay. Does God owe us salvation as compensation for our work?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Scripture in its context (you left out Abraham, verses 1-3)

Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ​

And that lack of context totally discredits your hypothesis

 

[GenemZ]

When Jesus taught his disciples on Faith, he taught as a practitioner.

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

He never attributed miracles solely to his being the "Son of God".

John 5:9 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

Agreed... Jesus being as a man was necessary to die in our place. He had to make himself be as a man in every way.

Those miracles? Just look at Moses. God parted the red sea on behalf of Moses. Was Moses God? No.

Likewise, Jesus' miracles were not him being God. Though, Jesus was God. Simply not allowed to manifest Himself as God unless He disqualify himself to die as our substitute on the Cross.

After Jesus died for our sins. (died as a man) After, he paid for our sins, then he was able to return to His status as being God in power.

He was as God in Heaven. Came down and made Himself to be as a man on earth. Then, after finishing his work, returned to Heaven to once more be as God. This time, God in bodily form.

 

[Saint Steven]

Scripture in its context (you left out Abraham, verses 1-3)

Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ​

And that lack of context totally discredits your hypothesis

That was post #666


JohnT Regular Member
666
✟3,984.00
+63
Christian
Married
US-Republican

 

[John Mullally]

Here is something closer to the meaning of the Greek:

Philippians 2: 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In other words, it is not as formerly believed that the kenosis is an "emptying" of the Deity of Jesus; rather, it is an adding unto his Deity a second, human nature

Philippians 2:6-11 is a sandwich. Verses 7 & 8 speak of His pre-resurrection life and ministry on earth. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus make a claim to his disciples that he was able to effect a miracle due to his standing as the "Son of God". Rather he attributed his disciples failures to a lack of faith or listening to the wrong spirit. He was able to send out his disciples with miracle working power then, in the book of Acts, and now in 2020. Philippians 2:6 applies before his incarnation and Philippians 2:9-11 apply after his resurrection.

John 5:9 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner."

Tread carefully when discounting quotes from Jesus (AKA The Word).

 

[Aussie Pete]

Did Jesus have Faith ?

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
8- God has no need for Faith
9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner and He is God
10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable


Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

hope this helps !!!

I disagree. Faith, hope and love are divine and eternal qualities. Men have a measure of faith (Romans 12:3). If God does not have faith, how can He give it to men? Love is poured out in to our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). It's not human love, it is God's love.

 

[Saint Steven]

I disagree. Faith, hope and love are divine and eternal qualities. Men have a measure of faith (Romans 12:3). If God does not have faith, how can He give it to men? Love is poured out in to our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). It's not human love, it is God's love.

I agree.
As I read your post it occurred to me that God spoke the creation into existence.
Which is the same instruction we are given in terms of speaking to the mountain that will be cast into the sea. With the faith the size of a mustard seed. Faith is demonstrated whenever we take an action that we know will be effective. And even more so when we exercise faith in our uncertainty.

 

[dms1972]

Seems as if you are WoF-like.

You are conflating three unrelated items:

1. The hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ.
2. Adopting a modalistic (Sabellian) view of Jesus Christ
3. The command of Jesus to the Disciples.

It is utterly out-of-context for anyone to assume that a command given to the Disciples back in 30 AD (?) is applicable to 2020..

Remember this apologetic axiom: Any verse taken out of its context is a pretext. Your verses selection is not an exception to this axiom.

I think you are correct to distinguish these three things, and to insist on context.

 

[GenemZ]

If God does not have faith, how can He give it to men?

God who knows all things? He needs to have faith?

God who is all powerful and can do anything he wants? He needs faith?

Hebrews 11:1 tells us that Faith is the substance of things unseen?
Is anything unseen by God?

This may help someone here.

The following is taken from notes from messages given by a pastor-scholar.

Note: There are three different ways 'Pistis' should be translated in the New Testament:

1) That which causes Trust and Faith. Translated faithfulness,
reliability, proof, pledge.

2) Faith in the active tense. The act of believing. Translated faith,
trust, confidence.

3) Faith in the instrumental case: 'that which is believed'. The
'body of faith'. Therefore should be translated Doctrine. And
that is the use here - Doctrine.

Note: Hope..

For the mature believer, "elpis" no longer means "hope". Instead it means "absolute confidence" in God and His Promises being kept! Therefore, doctrine is reality. You can be tricked by what you see or feel or think. Understand God's thinking, and you can not be tricked.
​

grace and peace........

 

[John Mullally]

I disagree. Faith, hope and love are divine and eternal qualities. Men have a measure of faith (Romans 12:3). If God does not have faith, how can He give it to men? Love is poured out in to our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). It's not human love, it is God's love.

How did Jesus make it without faith?

Mathew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[dms1972]

[self-edit]
Jesus didn't need to be saved from sin, so he didn't need faith in that sense. I think I would agree that it is faithfulness to, and confidence in the Father that is most often what is being refered to in the case of Jesus.

 

[GenemZ]

How did Jesus make it without faith?

Mathew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus laid down his life to save mankind.

When he agreed to make himself be as a man he laid down his Deity's attributes.

He laid down his right to his omniscience. To be as a man he had to agree not to use his omniscience. He had to lay down his omnipresence... and, His omnipotence.

When he laid down his life he needed at that point to relate to God as a man would relate.

His miracles which required power that needed to come from God, had to come from the Holy Spirit.
His power requiring knowing what to do next had to come from the Father through prayer.

So... Making himself to be as a man? He at that time, needed faith to carry out the Father's plan. The one advantage he had over us was that he never doubted God at any single point. We as sinners doubt when we do not understand. Jesus always understood all that he needed to know because he was given grace without measure.

 

[dms1972]

In Jesus Christ, God the Son assumed human nature, he didn't cease to be God, but was God Incarnate as a particular man. Is this not mind boggling?

JohnT is correct that this is a hypostatic union with God. Christians are not in a hypostatic union with God, rather they have a faith union with God in Christ. So I think we need to be careful about saying Jesus had faith like we have faith, in case we lose the uniqueness of who Jesus Christ is.

Athanasius said: "The Word was not hedged in by His body, nor did His presence in the body prevent His being present elsewhere as well...At one and the same time - this is the wonder - as Man he was living a human life, and as Word He was sustaining the life of the Universe, and as Son He was in constant union with the Father."

 

[GenemZ]

In Jesus Christ, God the Son assumed human nature, he didn't cease to be God, but was God Incarnate as a particular man. Is this not mind boggling?

Though having eternally existing in the essence of God.
Yet, he had to cease being as God to make himself be as a man.

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something
to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Philippians 2:6-8​

Something very important was being revealed in that passage about the Son of God, having that ability to disassociate.

For its how all creation could have been created through Him. Yet, created without having to know who would believe, and who would reject.

By making himself function solely as a Soul (putting aside his attributes of Deity), he as a Soul simply created in his mind every human, yet with only having the best for them in mind.... While the Trinity in its full power caused everything to become created. Its essential to understand if we are ever to understand how God created all angels and humans to have free will.

 

[dms1972]

Sorry, but your "experience" is inadequate. I can say that because you are attempting to make a unified document from different events from different places. It is a patchwork quilt of unrelated verses. The Bible does not read like that. The Qur'an does, but that is an entirely different matter.

Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of the word "context"?

There is an old saying I have heard ministers occasionally use: They say, when you see a "Therefore..." in scripture, look to see what it is there for! What you are saying re context of a verse within a larger portion of the Bible seems fine to me. I don't think using a few verses together or sometimes quoting even one verse is always a pretext however, but we should certainly be careful we are not just looking for verses to support our own ideas.

 

[dms1972]

Though having eternally existing in the essence of God.
Yet, he had to cease being as God to make himself be as a man.

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something
to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Philippians 2:6-8​

Something very important was being revealed in that passage about the Son of God, having that ability to disassociate.

For its how all creation could have been created through Him. Yet, created without having to know who would believe, and who would reject.

By making himself function solely as a Soul (putting aside his attributes of Deity), he as a Soul simply created in his mind every human, yet with only having the best for them in mind.... While the Trinity in its full power caused everything to become created. Its essential to understand if we are ever to understand how God created all angels and humans to have free will.

I am sorry your comments are not making much sense to me, they seem to be some of your own ideas and not derived entirely from the scripture you reference. "Made himself nothing", means to me made himself nothing of account. He was born in a stable, not in some palace. He entered Jerusalem riding on the back of donkey, he refused to be lifted and carried around like nobility.

Jesus did not consider equality with God to be used to his own advantage in His Incarnation - that is he was God and a man, and did not use his divinity to avoid entering fully into what it means to be a human being, or to avoid suffering, he didn't give into the devil's temptation. He was without sin. There was no confusion, of the two natures - human and divine in Jesus, that is one of the main points of Chalcedonian Christology.

 

[Aussie Pete]

God who knows all things? He needs to have faith?

God who is all powerful and can do anything he wants? He needs faith?

Hebrews 11:1 tells us that Faith is the substance of things unseen?
Is anything unseen by God?

This may help someone here.

The following is taken from notes from messages given by a pastor-scholar.

Note: There are three different ways 'Pistis' should be translated in the New Testament:

1) That which causes Trust and Faith. Translated faithfulness,
reliability, proof, pledge.

2) Faith in the active tense. The act of believing. Translated faith,
trust, confidence.

3) Faith in the instrumental case: 'that which is believed'. The
'body of faith'. Therefore should be translated Doctrine. And
that is the use here - Doctrine.

Note: Hope..

For the mature believer, "elpis" no longer means "hope". Instead it means "absolute confidence" in God and His Promises being kept! Therefore, doctrine is reality. You can be tricked by what you see or feel or think. Understand God's thinking, and you can not be tricked.
​

grace and peace........

Faith is not a natural quality. It's certainly not satanic. So it must be of God. God does not need anything. He is complete in Himself. God is love. Why can He not be faith also? I know what hope is. I don't have a Bible verse that would state that God is hope, so I'll not make any claim to that effect.