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Some claim Jesus had faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Sep 6, 2020.

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  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    A difference of opinion does not reject the Bible. There are two supportable positions on this. You have embraced Cessationism, others have embraced Continuationism.

    Doe you believe that God does not speak to individuals today? Do you believe that God cannot heal the sick if we pray for them? Where do you draw the line?
     
  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Through His word not like God did with Moses, Peter, James, John and Paul. That ended with the Apostles. Genez is correct.

    Next you will say barking like a dog, roaring like a lion, slaying in the spirit is from God. Its from satan.

    Where is your discernment ?
     
  3. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is not with Steven and myself - it is with Paul, because the exit criteria in verse 13 has not occurred.

    Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
     
  4. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Nothing there about God still speaking audibly to men today.

    BTW- that was very rare in Scripture with only a select few who actually spoke directly with God and God with them.

    Do some research on that if you do not believe me.
     
  5. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    Another something from Paul who you seem to be arguing with:

    1 Corinthians 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

    1 Corinthians 14:29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

    If the ministry of the Prophet (again Ephesians 4:11-13) has not ceased, then neither have tongues or prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  6. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Still nothing saying God speaks directly/audibly to people today. You made that up.
     
  7. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    Prophesy is God speaking to his people - which the writings of Paul demonstrate is for today.

    Please cut to the chase and provide a scriptural argument for the cessation of the Gifts of the Spirit - Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  8. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It could be true of some within the older churches. However there can be immature uses of spiritual power within some of the more charismatic churches.

    The issue of Christology is somewhat different from continuationism versus cessationism however. And there are degrees of belief in continuation or cessationism, its the extremes that need to be avoided. I believe people can be healed through prayer but I beleive it usually happens over a period of time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  9. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Please follow up your semi-cessationist views with the exegesis that you say that you have. I am especially curious that your position is that "some gifts of Holy Spirit will cease, but others will not".
     
  10. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    John was an Apostle. Higher than even a prophet could ever dream of.

    How many prophets in the NT actually wrote Scripture?

    You need perspective which you lack...

    In Christ........
     
  11. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    When I used to live in the Berkshires in MA years back... I noticed in the local paper's community section, that a professional hypnotist was to entertain the student body at a college, and the public was welcome. Since it was to be on my night off I decided to go.

    It began with the hypnotist giving a test to see who could be hypnotized. The hypnotist explained that only certain people can be hypnotized, that the rest of us should simply watch an observe what was to take place.

    Before the night was over I was experiencing a "secular" Charismatic service. There were some who were slain in the spirit. Just like we see in some churches. He even tapped their forehead before they fell backwards to have someone catch them.There were moments when some (on command) found themselves flooded with a deep sense of love for another person, and just had to tell everyone in the room how much they loved them. Speaking in tongues? Gibberish is more like it. Online you can catch videos of hypnotized people speaking not only in unknown languages, but another being assigned to interpret.

    The mind that is not protected by the REAL Holy Spirit is a demon's play ground. The only protection we have is possessing an ACCURATE translation and interpretation of God's Holy Word. The Truth will make you free of deception.

    But? Like a drug. Some are addicted to the effects. They refuse to change and will fight the Word. So be it. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

    Paul gave a warning to the churches with tears and sorrow.


    Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as
    you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. For,
    as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,
    many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction,
    their god is their belly [*emotions*], and their glory is in their shame.
    Their mind is set on earthly things."
    Philpns 3:17-19​

    Back then there was no word "emotions." Body parts were used. The belly was one way to mean "emotions." In the OT the word "reins" was often used. Sometimes "bowels" was used to mean deep emotions.

    Paul tells us today that believers who will be enemies of the Cross make their emotions their "god." There is no reasoning with those ruled by their emotions. That's why Paul expressed himself with 'tears.' They serve as a frustration to those who are rationale and honest with what the Word tells us.

    Emotion driven believers will themselves to survive by distorting and manipulating the Word to take on the meaning they want it to be. Very clever at times. And, make themselves to be an open target for inspiration from the cosmos.

    So be it. We are at war. From without. And, there will be those from within.



    But there were also false prophets among the people, just
    as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly
    introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign
    Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on
    themselves."
    2 Pet 2:1​


    Why not false prophets among them? Peter was writing to his contemporaries. His own congregation. Those who were alive at his time. He knew he was soon to die. He told them that among themselves will appear false teachers, just like in the past there had been false prophets. No mistake about it.

    I do not fight it. But, because I do not fight it? Some choose to fight me. I am not going to compromise. The Bible is our Constitution. One that does not need to be amended.


    grace and peace.........
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  12. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Why even mention some to cease? If all are to remain?

    Why even bring it up?
     
  13. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    You brought up that idea, not me. Remember this?


    That is why I asked you to share your exegesis of the passages which you state demonstrate the cessationist viewpoint.
     
  14. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    To whom do you aim that dart?

    If it is me, I ask the basis of your accusation.

    If it is not me, just the name of the "guilty party"will suffice.
     
  15. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I am not being snarky, but it is obvious that you have not been a pastor. I say that because in reality, the effective Evangelical pastor cannot function without hearing from Holy Spirit daily.

    When that happens, those in the congregation having spiritual discernment know automatically, it is a situation of "Thus saith the Lord"

    I can say that because several times in different pastorates I told my wife that thus and such was going to happen. When it did, her reaction was, "John, you are scary."

    My reply was "God told me that, so there is no cause for alarm."

    On another forum today, I mentioned a father who incested his oldest daughter, and since she was in her first year of college, he began grooming his 11 years-old daughter. My reaction was to fall on my knee, and wretch.

    I could not report that to the police because I had no evidence to take to them, and who would believe me if I told them "God told me that"?

    When God speaks, He does so in a way that once heard, you never forget, and when He speaks again, it is usually done in the same manner. Thus, you know without a doubt that it is Him, and take action.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  16. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    John I'm specifically talking about God speaking to a person the same way God directly spoke to Moses in an audible voice having a real conversation.

    Do you believe God speaks that way today ?
     
  17. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    God speaks to His servants as He sees fit.

    Yeah, I know that is not the answer you want. Permit me to explain with another incident from that church below the Mason-Dixon Line.

    I was doing visitation in the home of an influential couple (let's call them "Blondie and Dagwood") trying to lay the foundation for an outreach program. For a while, they left the living room.

    Immediately, I saw bunting with the confederate stars and bars hanging from the ceiling. I knew that they were not there, and having a background working with schizophrenics, I was wondering of I was having an incipient mental breakdown. I was scared. Therefore I left ASAP.

    The outreach project was to do a church plant in a predominately black city, south of our location, and i was talking to another respected member of another church in our denomination. With his southern drawl he said that he knew about my leaving, and that he asked me, "Go you know that "Blondie and Dagwood" are KKK?

    Immediately, I realized that because I did not recognize that Holy Spirit gave me a vision, I tried to press on with the project in my own strength. Of course, it failed.

    Do not get hung up on the manner of God speaking to you, but surely, you need to ask Him if He is trying to get your attention if you see a vision, or hear something. Just ask, "Spirit that gave me those words, or that vision, did Jesus Christ, the Son of God come in the flesh?"

    You will get a positive answer if the source was God or Holy Spirit; you will get cursing and blasphemy if the source was not God.

    Post 687
     
  18. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat Living in the Misinformation Age Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

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    ADMIN HAT ON
    [​IMG]
    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    thread closed permanently RV's.png
     
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