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Some claim Jesus had faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Sep 6, 2020.

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  1. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    My source says about word “pistis”:

    1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
    1a) relating to God
    1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
    1b) relating to Christ
    1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
    1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
    1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
    2) fidelity, faithfulness
    2a) the character of one who can be relied on

    Raamattu.uskonkirjat.net

    And as that shows, one meaning is fidelity, which means faithfulness to a person, cause, or belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support. And I think it is obvious from the context also. In Bible, those who have had faith, were loyal to God, they heard the message from God, believed it and were loyal to God. Examples of this are in Heb. 11:7-40. In all the cases, person heard, believed the message and then was loyal (faithful).
     
  2. GTW27

    GTW27 Junior Member

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    And when the seed grows fully into a Tree, what is within the pages will be fully known and lived.
     
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  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I don't see why faith should be exclusively for sinners. Adam and Eve trusted God before sin entered into the world. We will continue to trust God for all eternity once sin is removed forever. It appears that Jesus trusted the Father while on earth. I don't have any problem with talking about Jesus' faith.
     
  4. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered
    and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
    Heb 4:13​

    Nothing is unseen by God... Faith requires it be unseen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  5. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    That definition is confusing what "faith" is... and how "faith" may be manifested when one has faith...
     
  6. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I am saying that you are studying an irrelevant tree, and forgetting that is surrounded by a forest of trees.

    Your post focuses on the "tree", "pistis" and its grammar forgetting that the "tree" is surrounded by a forest called "context"

    Frequently, on another forum, I pointed out that any verse taken from its context is simply a pretext, and your post is not an exception to that apologetic axiom.

    The pericope is all about justification of believers, therefore, the grammar also supports that. Only believers like Abraham are justified, and that comes as a result of their faith IN JESUS, and not by their works, such as trusting in the "faith OF JESUS. Therefore it is manifestly the faith OF Jesus that justifies; rather, it is the faith of the individual. that is why "Abraham believed. and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness" is in Genesis 15:6, and Romans 4:3

    FAITH IN JESUS is a personal thing, the FAITH OF JESUS is outside of Jesus, and apart from him. In reality it is simply an "object", offering nothing more than some sort of magic talisman that supposedly wards off evil.

    I hope that these analogies can help you see what the Greek says both grammatically, and in its context.
     
  7. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Yes I'm well aware of DA Carsons saying:
    "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."
     
  8. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Please clarify:

    Who else, other than God Himself can heal?

    Are you perhaps denying the hypostatic union? Seems to me that you may be saying that while on Earth, Jesus was less than being fully God.

    You see, the hypostatic union states that Jesus Christ is 1 Divine Person having two distinct natures. As such He is 100% God and 100% human always, with any mixture or confusion of those two natures. Saying that "there is a God part of Jesus Christ, and a human part of Jesus Christ is a form of modalism.

    For your information:

    Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

    Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).​

    from https://www.theopedia.com/modalism
     
  9. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I was unaware of its origin; but I have used it extensively throughout my apologetics career.

    Nevertheless, there was MUCH more to that post than that particular thought.
     
  10. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Let me clarify this thread. It was for a thought provoking discussion. I'm not dogmatic about this topic like I am with the Deity of Christ, The Trinity, The bodily Resurrection, Ascension, 2nd Coming of Christ, the Gospel and salvation by grace through faith which are considered Essentials with no room for error. These are salvific issues whereas this thread is for discussion on the topic and not salvific in nature if you or I differ on the Jesus faith.

    Would you agree ?
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    And I believe the miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise how could he expect us to do miracles?

    Matthew 10:8
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
     
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  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    It's not a gift if you worked to earn it. It then becomes an obligation to the "employer" to pay. Does God owe us salvation as compensation for our work?

    Romans 4:4-5
    Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
     
  13. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Romans 6:1-14
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  14. iLove

    iLove Newbie

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    Romans 4:5 teaches us that God only awards Righteousness only on the basis of Faith in Christ and His Finished Work. Our Faith must be placed exclusively in Jesus, the Son of God, and Jesus, the Lamb of God to be awarded Righteousness. If we preach Jesus alone and ignore the Cross (the Lamb of God), that is another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). This is sin, an insult to God!

    Every Word that God has ever spoken is “In Righteousness” (Proverbs 8:8), and therefore must be heard and received (Revelation 3:3) through Faith in the Cross of Jesus Christ, or we remain trapped in the Letter of the Law and forfeit the opportunity to walk in the newness of the Spirit. If this is not understood, there will only be a make-believe spiritual walk and one might even have a name that they are alive, but Christ says they will be dead (Revelation 3:1). The Letter of the Law can only produce carnal Christians, and to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). We must look to the Cross and live!
     
  15. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus taught his disciples on Faith, he taught as a practitioner.

    Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

    He never attributed miracles solely to his being the "Son of God".

    John 5:9 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  16. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Seems as if you are WoF-like.

    You are conflating three unrelated items:
    1. The hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ.
    2. Adopting a modalistic (Sabellian) view of Jesus Christ
    3. The command of Jesus to the Disciples.
    It is utterly out-of-context for anyone to assume that a command given to the Disciples back in 30 AD (?) is applicable to 2020..

    Remember this apologetic axiom: Any verse taken out of its context is a pretext. Your verses selection is not an exception to this axiom.
     
  17. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    How is the "hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ" during his pre-resurrection earthy ministry scriptural given Philippians 2:7-9?

    Where does Saint Steven adopt a modalistic view of Jesus Christ?

    Matthew 10:8 is not an isolated verse - those actions (or signs) were associated with the preaching of the Gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, restated as part of the Great Commission (Mark 16:14-18), and put in practice throughout the book of Acts.

    If the Great Commission as written (Mark 16:14-18) no longer applies in 2020, then maybe Luke 18:8 does.

    Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    No. It teaches nothing of the sort. Read it again.

    Saint Steven said:
    It's not a gift if you worked to earn it. It then becomes an obligation to the "employer" to pay. Does God owe us salvation as compensation for our work?

    Romans 4:4-5
    Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did you really write that? (appears so)
    So, we are to disregard the commands of Jesus because they were given to someone other than us and are clearly out-of-date? Wow.

    On garbage day I should put my Bibles out on the curb for pickup, right? Since they are completely irrelevant today. Seriously?

    Saint Steven said:
    And I believe the miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise how could he expect us to do miracles?

    Matthew 10:8
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    In my experience those who claim a verse is out-of-context open up the context wide enough to make it appear to say what they WANT it to say. Thus completely disregarding what the verse plainly says on its own.
     
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