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Some claim Jesus had faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Sep 6, 2020.

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  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Here is that verse from a literal translation. Now, I have caught mistakes in this translation (no translation is perfect) ; so I looked at the Greek words.


    (CLV) Ro 3:3
    For what if some disbelieve (EpistEsan)? Will not their unbelief (apistia) nullify the faithfulness (pistin) of God?

    Now understanding Greek isn't one of my strong suits; but it appears that all three of these words share the same root.
     
  2. Jok

    Jok Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying that if Jesus tried to heal person A and person B from leprosy it would work on person A if they believed it was true that Jesus was God and could heal them, but if person B had doubts then the attempted healing wouldn’t work?
     
  3. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, I specifically am not saying that it depends upon believing the truth of some proposition. Obviously you can't trust God if he doesn't exist, so there are some beliefs involved, but faith in the NT is typically not that.

    I suspect when Jesus said "your faith has made you whole" he was thinking of the person's trust in God's promises or maybe even God's care for them. He almost never said the reverse, that prayer without faith won't work. In part I'm not quite sure why anyone would pray if they didn't trust God. Prayer is sort of a sign of faith. It also leads to a kind of legalistic approach, where people feel they have to measure their faith to see if it's enough. Mark 9:29 is the closest think I can think of.
     
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  4. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes he did


    Hebrews 2:11-13
    The Messiah trusted in God & lived a life of trust for us to follow in his foot steps.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  5. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes. In fact NRSV translates as faithful or unfaithful in all three cases. That may make more sense in the context
     
  6. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Faith is what we believe. Jesus faced all temptations as a man and pioneered the way to overcome the world. In doing so, he pioneered the faith we are to walk in. Jesus was tested and suffered, and once the truth needed was implemented, and overcame some evil? It was added to his arsenal until he finally overcame all there is to overcome in the world... Having done so, He has passed down his faith he overcame with to make it our faith in Him. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. As a man he tested and proved the faith that later was to be transferred to His church, as to become our own faith by means of growing in grace and knowledge of God's Holy Word. And, most importantly. Walking in the filling of the Spirit who mentors us into becoming more and more like Christ.
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
    Mat 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
    Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
    Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

    Do not these verses demonstrate Jesus Faith in the Father?

    Was not Jesus born a man, like unto us that He might be tempted as we are, yet without sin, wouldn't sin for Him be not having Faith in the Father.

    It cannot be understood that He would be having Faith in Himself because He is God, it would not be understood as such because, the Son and the Father are not the same, they are two separate Beings of the Trinity, both God yet being ONE.

    Jesus became Flesh, not a similitude of Flesh but Flesh, Jesus became 100%
    incarnate yet 100% God.

    If Jesus did not take on all that Man is, He could not have been tempted like as we are, therefore He had to have Faith.
     
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    You have summed it up very nicely. Matthew put it this way.

    Mat. 13:58
    And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
     
  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Unbelief is not just a weakness - it is a sin.
     
  10. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I had the question many years ago, (Is the Faith of the person being Prayed for necessary for their healing?

    I found three examples of Healing which show just how any Healing works or takes place.

    1).
    Mat. 9:20
    And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
    Mat 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
    Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

    2).
    Mark 2:1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.
    Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
    Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
    Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
    Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
    Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
    Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
    Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
    Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

    3).
    John 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
    Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
    Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
    Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
    Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
    Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
    Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
    Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

    These three examples demonstrate,
    1). The Faith of the one being Healed.
    2). The Faith of others for the one being Healed, but not through their Prayer for them.
    3). The Faith of Jesus Praying for the one being Healed, regardless of the Persons Faith.

    #3 is a demonstration of Jesus Authority being used.

    Now there is a fourth demonstration of Faith and Authority of Christ in action.

    4).
    Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
    Act 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
    Act 3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
    Act 3:4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
    Act 3:5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
    Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
    Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
    Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
    Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
    Act 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

    #4 is the demonstration of the Authority of Jesus through the Holy Spirit by the Believer for the one being Healed.

    But as with all the Healing's it is the Holy Spirit of God doing the Healing, but all accomplished by FAITH.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
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  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Unbelief is a condition of mankind (But is not sin, in and of itself) which leads to sin until such a time they become a Believer a new Creation in Christ, for this is sin.

    1 Jn. 3:4
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Rom. 5:12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
     
  12. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    "That which is not of faith is sin..." Rom 14:23
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right. He was dependent on the Father, which indicates faith in the Father.
    Twice in the gospel of John, Jesus says "I do nothing on my own". Thus dependent on the Father in whom he had faith.

    John 5:19
    Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

    John 8:28
    So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    As I understand it, Jesus didn't heal anyone by virtue of his own deity (which he willingly laid aside). God was healing the people through the humanity of Jesus. Thus demonstrating that God can heal through us as well.

    Matthew 10:8
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
     
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  15. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The disciples tried to cast out a demon that exhibited symptoms like epilepsy, but could not. They asked them why they could not cast it out. He told them they lacked faith.

    Matthew 17:20 .... For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

    By this definition Jesus had faith for he gave sight to the blind, healed the sick, raised the dead and taught those lacking knowledge. He broke bread for thousands, calmed a storm and walked on water.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    All in a day's work. - lol
    Amazing what can be accomplished when we let God drive.

    Trying to remember if Jesus encountered the demoniac that same day.
    He was on the opposite side of the sea, if I remember correctly.
    Jesus had a power nap on the way there.
     
  17. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    He always did what was pleasing to the Father but that doesn't mean he always knew what the will of the Father was. If he knew he'd never have prayed IF....IF, you're willing.

    And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
    Luke 22:41
     
  18. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Matthew 17 Jesus had been preaching in villages near Caesarea Philippi; that is near the base of Mt. Hermon. After six days he went up a high mountain apart where he became bright in a transfiguration. God spoke out loud to Jesus and those with him. When Jesus descended down the mountain he found some of the disciples were trying to cast a demon out of a boy that tried to throw him down, even into a fire as they cooked on open fires in those days. The disciples sought Jesus’ help. He healed the boy.
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I was thinking of Matthew 14, which contains the story of the feeding of the four thousand and Jesus walking on water, but not the demoniac of the Gadarenes.
     
  20. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think that’s because He absolutely knew Who He Was.
     
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