Solving the Problem of false doctrine

[JAL]

AND there is no place in all of scripture that says "only share the Truth of God's Word - if you are a prophet".. Nothing like that exists.

If an atheist asks me a question about the gospel, of course I'm going to share the good news with them. But I'm not going out of my way to initiate such a conversation. Secondly, I'd share it a little differently than most Christians, namely with intellectual honesty. Meaning, I'm a fallible person - and yet I've got the nerve to counsel unbelievers on their eternal destiny? You really think that's what God intended? Exactly how sloppy and negligent - how unconcerned with the masses - do you think God is? What kind of God do you believe in, anyway?

You need to stop insulting Him. Stop insinuating that He is sloppy. He intended evangelists to speak infallible truths (prophecy) to unbelievers.

When I share the gospel (i.e., if an atheist asks me a question), I never claim to know Christianity to be true. That would be a lie. I rather say, "Since I'm just a fallible person, it is merely my opinion that Christianity is true." Because my mama always taught me that honesty is the best policy.

Now here's what you need to understand. The evangelists in Acts never hedged their message with, "This is merely my opinion." Does that mean they were dishonest? No, it means they knew they were in fact speaking infallible revelation (prophecy).

That is what true evangelism entails. And if that argument doesn't convince you that NT evangelism is prophecy, I have several more.

Evangelists and prophets are different gifts in the church not the same gift. See 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4.

Eph 4:
11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

You don't have to officially hold the governmental office of a prophet to engage in prophetic utterance.

 

[All Becomes New]

If an atheist asks me a question about the gospel, of course I'm going to share the good news with them. But I'm not going out of my way to initiate such a conversation. Secondly, I'd share it a little differently than most Christians, namely with intellectual honesty. Meaning, I'm a fallible person - and yet I've got the nerve to counsel unbelievers on their eternal destiny? You really think that's what God intended? Exactly how sloppy and negligent - how unconcerned with the masses - do you think God is? What kind of God do you believe in, anyway?

You need to stop insulting Him. Stop insinuating that He is sloppy. He intended evangelists to speak infallible truths (prophecy) to unbelievers.

When I share the gospel (i.e., if an atheist asks me a question), I never claim to know Christianity to be true. That would be a lie. I rather say, "Since I'm just a fallible person, it is merely my opinion that Christianity is true." Because my mama always taught me that honesty is the best policy.

Now here's what you need to understand. The evangelists in Acts never hedged their message with, "This is merely my opinion." Does that mean they were dishonest? No, it means they knew they were in fact speaking infallible revelation (prophecy).

That is what true evangelism entails. And if that argument doesn't convince you that NT evangelism is prophecy, I have several more.




You don't have to officially hold the governmental office of a prophet to engage in prophetic utterance.

You should sow broadly, not narrowly.

Mark 16:15–16 CSB17
“Then he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

 

[JAL]

Proponents of Sola Scriptura always pay lip service to the Holy Spirit. As you do here:

And since the Holy Spirit inspired scripture and also guides us today as we read HIS text.

So what does that mean? How does He "guide" us in a way that can still be called "Sola Scriptura"? If a voice can be authoritative, that is NOT Sola Scriptura. How then does He guide us? By making us better scholars? That is, by raising our IQ?

Paying lip service means nothing if you don't at least clarify what you mean by "guides us today".

 

[JAL]

You should sow broadly, not narrowly.

Mark 16:15–16 CSB17
“Then he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

I don't get your point. Seems another disconnect. In the passage you cited, Jesus commissioned His apostles/prophets to evangelize, just like I said.

 

[All Becomes New]

I don't get your point. Seems another disconnect. In the passage you cited, Jesus commissioned His apostles/prophets to evangelize, just like I said.

Because you said you don't evangelize to Atheists unless they ask. That's not evangelism.

 

[JAL]

Because you said you don't evangelize to Atheists unless they ask. That's not evangelism.

You seem to be assuming that self-initiated ministry was God's plan. With 100 billion souls at stake, you should assume as little as possible. Maybe an analogy will help. In Luke 9 and again in Luke 10, Jesus sent the disciples out to heal the sick. Were they successful? Yes. Now suppose the Twelve, on a given day of their own choosing, had self-initiated a round of healing. Would they likely have been successful? No.

Prophetic utterance is the opposite of self-initiated evangelism. Please do not shove your man-made religious traditions and assumptions down God's throat.

Could I be accused of doing the same? I don't think so. My stance is, "I'm fallible. As such, I don't know anything all. I don't even know for sure if Christianity is true, or even if God exists. The most I can do is sit here and pray for infallible revelation (aka prophecy) hoping that God does exist and does respond."

See the difference? I'm pretty sure I'm not shoving a bunch of man-made religious assumptions and traditions down God's throat.

 

[All Becomes New]

Could I be accused of doing the same? I don't think so. My stance is, "I'm fallible. As such, I don't know anything all. I don't even know for sure if Christianity is true, or even if God exists. The most I can do is sit here and pray for infallible revelation (aka prophecy) hoping that God does exist and does respond."

Then you are an agnostic. Why do you call yourself a Christian?

 

[JAL]

Then you are an agnostic. Why do you call yourself a Christian?

Are you fallible? If so, honesty demands you admit, "I'm not 100% sure Christianity is true."

Sorry to have to tell you this, but 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% sure is not 100% sure. That's what honesty entails.

I'm not an agnostic. I'm just honest about where I stand.

Of course, no God would want us to wallow in a state of only 99% sure. He wants us all to be infallibly sure - which means He intended every one of us to seek the gift of prophecy.

Ever heard the expression: All roads lead to Rome? That's how I feel about prophecy. From no matter what angle I view Christianity, it always seems to lead me right back to the primacy of prophecy.

 

[BobRyan]

Proponents of Sola Scriptura always pay lip service to the Holy Spirit. As you do here:

So what does that mean? How does He "guide" us in a way that can still be called "Sola Scriptura"?

As noted before - only you - use the idea that sola scriptura means "no Holy Spirit" or "reject the Holy Spirit" or "Holy Spirit not involved".

You can't respond as if we all use your definition for the term since so far no one but you assumes that particular definition on this thread.

Scripture is the written product of the Holy Spirit according to the Bible "Holy men of Old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God" 2 Peter 1.

How is that not incredibly easy to see:????

 

[BobRyan]

Then you are an agnostic. Why do you call yourself a Christian?

I think he means to say "I am not infallible" and to say that this opens a door for uncertainty.

 

[All Becomes New]

I think he means to say "I am not infallible" and to say that this opens a door for uncertainty.

No one is infallible, and no one has cartesian certainty (unless God is calling you to give your life for Christ literally, which he provides with His grace).

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Evangelists and prophets are different gifts in the church not the same gift. See 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4.

Eph 4:
11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

You don't have to officially hold the governmental office of a prophet to engage in prophetic utterance.

Let's test that suggestion -- sola scriptura - if you claim that no one is allowed to share the Word of God unless they are a prophet or giving a prophetic utterance.

Numbers 12:
6 He said,
“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.

1 Cor 12:
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

Paul tells the church that just as HE is an example to THEM - they also should be examples to others of how to be a Christian.

1 Thess 1:
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. 8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. 9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

1 Thess 2:
10 You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; 11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children, 12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,

 

[JAL]

As noted before - only you - use the idea that sola scriptura means "no Holy Spirit" or "reject the Holy Spirit" or "Holy Spirit not involved".

Deflection. Misrepresentation. Intellectual dishonesty. Wow. How many cheap debating tactics can be squeezed into one short post?

 

[BobRyan]

If an atheist asks me a question about the gospel, of course I'm going to share the good news with them. But I'm not going out of my way to initiate such a conversation.

2 Cor 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[JAL]

No one is infallible, and no one has cartesian certainty (unless God is calling you to give your life for Christ literally, which he provides with His grace).

Sorry, fact is, if I were 100% sure on a given issue, I would say, "Yes. I'm infallible on this issue."

You can make that claim if you want to. But I think you'd be kidding yourself. I think you have 99% certainty just like I do.

 

[JAL]

BobRyan said:

Let's test that suggestion -- sola scriptura - if you claim that no one is allowed to share the Word of God unless they are a prophet or giving a prophetic utterance.

You always extrapolate my words to the uttermost bizarre extreme because you're so desperate for a strawman. Let's bear in mind I was referring to:
(1) The technical definition of NT evangelism.
(2) Evangelistic campaigns launched to save the lost.

I wasn't suggesting that it's always a sin to talk about the Bible unless prophesying. For example I'm in favor of altar calls. Why? Because any atheists in the crowd likely are, indeed, in a posture of inquiry. That's likely why they came, even if they are too shy to raise their hand and ask questions. Since they are already there (and possibly God drew them there), why not tell them the good news? (But do it with intellectual honesty, admitting it's merely your opinion).

Numbers 12:
6 He said,
“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.

1 Cor 12:
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

Was a there an argument here? I missed it. I already said you don't have to be a prophet to perform NT evangelism. You just have to be equipped with prophetic utterances.

 

[JAL]

Let's test that suggestion -- sola scriptura - if you claim that no one is allowed to share the Word of God unless they are a prophet or giving a prophetic utterance.

Here's a nice verse for you.

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (1Pet 4:11, KJV).

Several reputable evangelical scholars understand this to be a reference to prophetic utterance. For example The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary refers 1Pet 4:11 to speaking in the corporate assembly “as a prophet, or divinely taught teacher in the Christian assembly.”

 

[JAL]

29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they?

Maybe you were hung up on the words in red. Too tunnel-visioned I think. Please don't lose sight of verse 31, however, "Eagerly pursue the greater gifts."

Paul laid out the government of the church. Here's the only church I personally believe in (all other definitions are man made).

" 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues."

In a government, will all citizens of the country simultaneously hold the same office? Take the USA. How many of us can be President at once?

However, churches should be constantly expanding, growing, and planting new churches. Hence anyone who is not a prophet today can be one in the future. And even if he is not appointed to the governmental office of prophet (let's suppose that role is already filled in his town), he can still receive the gift of prophecy.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, fact is, if I were 100% sure on a given issue, I would say, "Yes. I'm infallible on this issue."

1. Is Jesus the Son of God? --- does that make you infallible on something?
2. Is the Bible the Word of God? -- does that make you infallible in any way?
3. Is the Gospel truly good new? -- does that make you infallible in some way?

I find your ad hoc definitions problematic

 

[JAL]

1. Is Jesus the Son of God? --- does that make you infallible on something?
2. Is the Bible the Word of God? -- does that make you infallible in any way?
3. Is the Gospel truly good new? -- does that make you infallible in some way?

I find your ad hoc definitions problematic

God is holy. Do you want revival? Do you expect outpourings of the Holy Spirit? Upon a bunch of liars pretending to be 100% sure of their myriad doctrines?