Solving the Problem of false doctrine

[JAL]

I think you are mistaken. Rather than talking past each other, I simply disagree with the applicability of your Abraham example. Abraham was a unique life which occurred when there were no scriptures. Your what if speculation is simply a pointless waste of time.

God wants unbelievers to get saved today, right? Take a hard look at this statement by Paul:

24 If an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” (1 Cor 14).

In charismatic churches, they used to refer to this miracle as reading someone's mail. The secrets of a man's heart are not exegetically available. The only way to be informed of them is via an authoritative voice known as prophecy. Abraham was hardly "unique".


As I said, Paul was much too smart to counsel the churches to go out and evangelize the world. He knew a more effective means to that end: just seek the gift of prophecy.

A huge number of prophecies were not exegetically verifiable. (I'm not the only member of this forum to point this out). For example:

"The one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort" (1 Cor 14:3).

If God tells you something unestablished in Scripture, He must be using an authoritative voice.

 

[Darren Court]

What's so funny is that many Christians say, "I love the Lord and fully trust Him."

Do they love Him enough to consider changing their minds about doctrine?
Do they trust Him enough to consider changing their minds about doctrine?

I'm not sure they do. They often behave as though doctrinal correction is guaranteed to inflict more suffering than furnish healing. As if their heavenly Father is intent on harming them. As a result, most everyone is sticking to their traditional beliefs, they refuse to consider anything new, even on those rare occasions when a "radical" like me comes along.

And they won't even deal honestly with me when I show them a post like 151.

That's right focus your attention on others like pride and arrogance require!
Maybe if you read the bible you'd see that it tells you that your responsibility is YOU! (Spec eye plank)

And they won't even deal honestly with me when I show them a post like 151.... you're absolutely right... or you're right in your own eyes because you can't actually see that an answer has been given, just not one you don't like. Whilst you have steadfastly avoided the real question ... "maybe you should tell us what authority is so great to judge whether that "voice" you like to refer to is God's, your own or anothers?

I guess it's true delusion is a powerful defense for reality!

 

[JAL]

That's right focus your attention on others like pride and arrogance require!
Maybe if you read the bible you'd see that it tells you that your responsibility is YOU! (Spec eye plank)

And they won't even deal honestly with me when I show them a post like 151.... you're absolutely right... or you're right in your own eyes because you can't actually see that an answer has been given, just not one you don't like. Whilst you have steadfastly avoided the real question ... "maybe you should tell us what authority is so great to judge whether that "voice" you like to refer to is God's, your own or anothers?

I guess it's true delusion is a powerful defense for reality!

I don't see any serious treatment of post 151.

 

[Darren Court]

I don't see any serious treatment of post 151.

At least the first three words are correct.... "I don't see"

 

[JAL]

I think you are mistaken. Rather than talking past each other, I simply disagree with the applicability of your Abraham example. Abraham was a unique life which occurred when there were no scriptures. Your what if speculation is simply a pointless waste of time.

As for the prophet Abraham, please be cautious about presuming his experiences unique. After all:

....(1) In Romans 4 and Gal 3 and Heb 11 (not to mention James), Abraham is said to model the life of faith for all believers to emulate.
....(2) In Rom 10:17, Paul says that faith comes from hearing the Word of God - the enscripturated Word ??? We already know that the prophet Abraham was Paul's favorite model of faith. At both Rom 4 and Galatians 3, Paul cites Gen 15:

"The [divine] Word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision [speaking promises]....Abraham believed [the spoken promises] and his faith was credited to him as righteousness." (Gen 15:1-6).

His faith came by hearing the spoken Word (Rom 10:17). An authoritative voice/vision not exegetically verifiable. This is no different than John 10:27:

"27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

 

[JAL]

Without an authoritative voice, how is God supposed to run the church? How is He supposed to rule the angels?

Every time He wants us to do something, must He wait until we verify His specific will via scholarly analysis of Scripture? As if that were even possible?

Sola Scriptura is pure nonsense.

 

[Darren Court]

Without an authoritative voice, how is God supposed to run the church? How is He supposed to rule the angels?

Every time He wants us to do something, must He wait until we verify His specific will via scholarly analysis of Scripture? As if that were even possible?

Sola Scriptura is pure nonsense.

Since you have absolutely no way of AUTHORITATIVELY discerning whether it's God or your own voices in your head, I think any opinion you express must be sorted and cataloged along with the rest of the trash!

 

[JAL]

Since you have absolutely no way of AUTHORITATIVELY discerning whether it's God or your own voices in your head, I think any opinion you express must be sorted and cataloged along with the rest of the trash!

I'm not following you. Adam and Eve heard a voice commanding them to refrain from forbidden fruit. According to you, there was no authority for them to decide it was a legitimate voice. Maybe it was a deceiver. In that case, why would God hold them accountable to the voice? Punishing them for disobedience?

From a biblical standpoint, the notion of an authoritative voice DOES make sense, even if you don't understand how it works.

 

[JAL]

Since you have absolutely no way of AUTHORITATIVELY discerning whether it's God or your own voices in your head, I think any opinion you express must be sorted and cataloged along with the rest of the trash!

Inasmuch as you don't seem to want to learn anything from Abraham's example, perhaps you should take a hard look at Noah?

A voice commanded him to build the ark. Correct?

How many more examples do you need?

 

[JAL]

Since you have absolutely no way of AUTHORITATIVELY discerning whether it's God or your own voices in your head, I think any opinion you express must be sorted and cataloged along with the rest of the trash!

Authoritative voice is a trash-concept? So when God spoke to the prophets, they should have responded, "Sorry I don't buy into this kind of trash" ?????

 

[Darren Court]

Inasmuch as you don't seem to want to learn anything from Abraham's example, perhaps you should take a hard look at Noah?

A voice commanded him to build the ark. Correct?

How many more examples do you need?

Wow I seriously didn't think you could be that dense! Someone who claims mistakes made by everyone for 2,000 years are so obvious and who declares the write just facts not opinion but can be so lost. Incredible!
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How about a million different idiots who aren't in the bible who claimed God was speaking to them. How about those examples? How do you know the aren't telling the truth? Pretty simple isn't it?

 

[Darren Court]

Inasmuch as you don't seem to want to learn anything from Abraham's example, perhaps you should take a hard look at Noah?

A voice commanded him to build the ark. Correct?

How many more examples do you need?

In as much that Noah believe it was God speaking and he was right.
In as much if you tell me God is speaking, we all know it's complete rubbish.... right?

 

[BobRyan]

Prove me wrong. Find me a few Sola Scriptura scholars who counsel their readers to regard voices and visions

Almost all Bible scholars affirming sola scriptura principles - also admit Prophets, visions, dreams are a key mechanism used by God to produce scripture and guide the church.

Are you saying this is "news"?

You have not found one "no Holy Spirit -- so we can have sola scriptura without the Holy Spirit" scholar yet.

Luke 24:25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

Dismissing scripture is to dismiss prophets and the work of the Holy Spirit according to 2 Peter 1:19-21

 

[BobRyan]

Sola Scriptura simply doesn't work because it contradicts both the historical record and common sense.

The version you came up with - does appear to do that.

Why not use the version of Sola Scriptura that the rest of us rely on instead?

 

[BobRyan]

Do they love Him enough to consider changing their minds about doctrine?
Do they trust Him enough to consider changing their minds about doctrine?

I'm not sure they do.

Indeed they do. I know many who have done that very thing including members of my own family.

I am sure if you ask how many "former...." something are here today - you will find a great many who made a change.

You need to get out more.

 

[Darren Court]

Almost all Bible scholars affirming sola scriptura principles - also admit Prophets, visions, dreams are a key mechanism used by God to produce scripture and guide the church.

Are you saying this is "news"?

You have not found one "no Holy Spirit -- so we can have sola scriptura without the Holy Spirit" scholar yet.

Luke 24:25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

Dismissing scripture is to dismiss prophets and the work of the Holy Spirit according to 2 Peter 1:19-21

According to the principles in Jal's thinking, anyone can show up and claim God told them to alter the scripture and we'd have no means to validate that claim, and thus have to accept it. They're nuts!

 

[JAL]

The version you came up with - does appear to do that.

Why not use the version of Sola Scriptura that the rest of us rely on instead?

Sounds like it's worth a shot. To get the ball rolling, explain how it works in regard to post 151.

 

[Darren Court]

Sounds like it's worth a shot. To get the ball rolling, explain how it works in regard to post 151.

No why not answer the question asked that you claim is answered in 151 but isn't!
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HOW DO YOU decide when a claim is made from someone that they have heard directly from God on the interpretation of 2 Ti 3:16-17 or any other scripture?
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Come on for someone with such humble intelligence that surpasses those of 2,000 years of study and research, this should be an easy one!!

 

[JAL]

According to the principles in Jal's thinking, anyone can show up and claim God told them to alter the scripture and we'd have no means to validate that claim, and thus have to accept it. They're nuts!

Anyone? Meaning, everyone? That would be nuts. Agreed.

However, I do believe that God's authoritative power can utilize a prophet to speak authoritatively to his audience. Remember I said that NT evangelism is prophetic utterance? That's the whole point. Suppose I go out to a street corner to preach the gospel. Chances are, most people will ignore me for lack of confidence in my credibility. Now suppose a prophet marches out to the same street corner. The very nature of the prophetic gift is that God tends to speak authoritatively first to the prophet and then, as he delivers the message, secondly to his audience. Chances are high, then, that many of them will recognize an authoritative voice (John 10:27) and accept the gospel accordingly. Since this is the most effective way to win souls, the church needs to fix their epistemology.

So feel free to keep insulting me as to continue "winning" this debate. One day God should be able to provide you a decent estimate of how many souls were lost accordingly.

 

[JAL]

No why not answer the question asked that you claim is answered in 151 but isn't!
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HOW DO YOU decide when a claim is made from someone that they have heard directly from God on the interpretation of 2 Ti 3:16-17 or any other scripture?
.
Come on for someone with such humble intelligence that surpasses those of 2,000 years of study and research, this should be an easy one!!

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm a fallible exegete often relying on scholarly exegesis as a crutch, just like everyone else. If I ever mature enough spiritually (and thus become an infallible prophet like Paul), I'm pretty sure the authoritative Voice would tell me the correct interpretation of most passages. At that point, I'd probably have no more desire or need for bible-study tools.