Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

Presbyterian Continuist

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No one is ever saved or sanctified by following outward ceremonies rituals or doctrines.

The Scripture says that from the heart a person believes unto salvation, and with the mouth makes confession that Jesus Christ is Lord.
 
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BobRyan

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No one is ever saved or sanctified by following outward ceremonies rituals or doctrines.

The Scripture says that from the heart a person believes unto salvation, and with the mouth makes confession that Jesus Christ is Lord.

On the contrary - doctrine .. pure doctrine is the teaching of God ... it comes from scripture 2 Tim 3:16.

"you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". John 8:32
"sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD Is truth" John 17:17
"I AM the way the TRUTH and the Life" John 14

James 1
"18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." James 1:18

2 Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
 
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BobRyan

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Which traditions of the Catholic Church are taught as being mandatory for salvation that you disagree with? From what I’ve seen it’s the traditions that are not taught as being necessary for salvation that most non Catholics refute. Prayers to the Saints, Mary’s perpetual virginity, Mary mother of God, infant baptism, etc.

Ok now I am curious - is it considered within RCC orthodoxy to condemn those teachings as heresy (i.e. as being opposing Bible doctrine) - and yet be in good standing as a Catholic??

Someone posted recently as an Orthodox Christian -- that their church considered some doctrines of the RCC to be heresy. But I don't think that particular view is accepted by the RCC as consistent with "member-in-good-standing" -- or am I mistaken?
 
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BNR32FAN

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From New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia--

As expected your talking about the RCC again. The traditional Orthodox Catholic Church teaches that people in other denominations can be saved regardless of whether or not they hold to doctrines not pertaining to salvation, like the ones I mentioned for example.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ok now I am curious - is it considered within RCC orthodoxy to condemn those teachings as heresy (i.e. as being opposing Bible doctrine) - and yet be in good standing as a Catholic??

Someone posted recently as an Orthodox Christian -- that their church considered some doctrines of the RCC to be heresy. But I don't think that particular view is accepted by the RCC as consistent with "member-in-good-standing" -- or am I mistaken?

I know the a Orthodox Church rejects the RCC doctrine concerning purgatory. The Orthodox do believe it is possible that we may undergo a purification of our sinful nature but rejects the idea of a temporal punishment for the remission of sin. To my knowledge the EOC does not teach that RCC members or even other denominations are incapable of receiving salvation even despite not holding to Orthodox doctrines. Salvation is not contingent upon fully understanding God’s word. It is contingent upon acknowledging Christ as the Son of God and devotion to serving Him.
 
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BobRyan

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I know the a Orthodox Church rejects the RCC doctrine concerning purgatory. The Orthodox do believe it is possible that we may undergo a purification of our sinful nature but rejects the idea of a temporal punishment for the remission of sin. To my knowledge the EOC does not teach that RCC members or even other denominations are incapable of receiving salvation even despite not holding to Orthodox doctrines. Salvation is not contingent upon fully understanding God’s word. It is contingent upon acknowledging Christ as the Son of God and devotion to serving Him.


My assumption is that all denominations view the RCC members as capable of salvation even though we differ with them on some of their doctrines.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Of course! You asked about the Catholic Church's teaching! :doh:

The Church of Rome was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD. Their teachings are very different from the apostolic Catholic Church.
 
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Albion

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The Church of Rome was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD. Their teachings are very different from the apostolic Catholic Church.
Too cute by far for these kinds of discussions IMHO.
 
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Too cute by far for these kinds of discussions IMHO.
It's like on D Day in 1944, both the Allies and the Germans asked, "Whose side is God on?"
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 7
5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Acts 20
29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

No wonder Christ demonstrated the way to "hammer" supposedly holy-tradition of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai -- via "sola scriptura"

Some will say that any of those taught by the Apostles could never have gone into error and thus anyone taught by those taught by the Apostles also could not be in error

Not according to Paul in Acts 20 -- Paul claims that simply being taught by him was not enough to stop the heresy from within .

Paul told Timothy to try and stop the rise of apostasy

1 Tim 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation

John points out that it was getting out of control
3 John 1
9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

So with an outright firefight in the first century we are then being told that in the 2nd and 3rd century "all must have been well.. surely nothing could have gone amiss".

Seriously??
 
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Major1

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Holy Scripture is part of Holy Tradition.

No it is not!

There are instances of tradition in the Bible but they are all scriptural or do not contend with the scripture teaching itself.

David, upon only 3 verses in the Bible that have the word “tradition” in the Scriptures, Catholicism’s entire practice for traditions being of equal status with scripture are founded on these. Despite the fact that the same Scripture that mentions the word tradition makes it clear from both Jesus and the apostles writings that they are to be our source of life. So lets look at this Scriptures carefully and see what they say and what they do not say.

1) 1 Cor.11:23 ……...
“For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; Here Paul states he is presenting in writing what he had previously taught them in person, that which I also delivered unto you.”

This pertains to the communion and how it is to be taken. So what he had taught orally was inscripturated, so there no validation for oral tradition here. Paul learned of the communion by the other apostles as they fellowshipped and broke bread each week. However Paul learned more of this from the Lord and is the only apostle to write in detail about it.

2) 2 Thess. 2:15...…..
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Both which were taught were the same that was written down. What traditions is Paul talking about? In v.5 Paul previously stated “ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” This Paul says he already taught them in person but now is writing it down. Consistent with the rest of the teachings, everything said was written down that would be used to have one practice their Christian relationship.

He was giving them and us in writing what he had previously taught. Which was about the man of sin, to provide further understanding clarifying any misconceptions they had, Since the epistle starts off with the church shaken up by a false letter or word they received that the resurrection already taking place and they thought they missed out. So presently he is elaborating on the details of the tribulation and the falling away.

3) 2 Thess. 3:6...…..
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition (some translations have teaching, at any rate teaching can be passed on orally before it is committed to writing) which he received from us.”

Again if we go further we find what is being said which proves all should be read in its context.

V.10 …...
“for even when we were with you we commanded you this, If anyone does not work neither shall they eat.”

It was the same thing by personal word or by letter. They showed this teaching by example as they were with the Corinthians and he put in writing what he had taught them earlier.

This way they would not forget or corrupt it after his death. None of these scriptures have any relationship to the traditions presently taught and practiced in the Roman Catholic Church.

Further no one has ever documented any specific teaching to be accredited to Paul in their traditions. Obviously not everything the apostles “said” is written down but the doctrines are. So there is nothing spoken that was not written that we would need to know about salvation and living.

For example Paul says in 1 Cor.15:1 ...…..
“Moreover brethren I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you...” Here it is written out.

The only revelation we have today is the same committed to the apostles that was written down, this was what the church accepted and practiced after the apostles, that which was written, not what is spoken. The same Paul who is claimed to write of traditions specifically tell us in 1 Cor.4:6 “do not to go beyond what is written.” How could he do this if he approved of the apostles oral teaching alongside the writings? He couldn't. That is why what was taught was penned on paper, pointing to the Scripture as our final authority.

Every time the Pharisees the religious men brought up traditions as equal to the Scripture Jesus brought them to the word. This is why he called them the traditions of men because they did not come from God but by religious men who no longer intended to obey the word.
Traditions found in the Bible
 
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Major1

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Holy Tradition is not "tradition of men".

David, when we look at the examples of tradition in the Scripture we find its purpose does the very opposite of the word written. If the traditions the Catholics hold are suppose to be a body of teaching that was passed down by the apostles oral tradition, why are they written down?
Why are they not included in the bible if they are written down.
After all they are suppose to be apostolic teaching.

Catholics “Sacred Tradition” becomes invalid if in any point it contradicts the Bible.

Catholic teachings of purgatory,
penance,
indulgences,
Mass,
praying the rosary,
praying to saints
praying to Mary,
wearing scapulars,
forbidding priests to marry,
the assumption of Mary,
the Immaculate conception of Mary simply are not found in the Scripture and they contradict scriptures teachings.

Any verses found to validate these by Catholics are always subject to being redefined or pulled from its actual context. The Catholic Church has used their Traditions to make them equal to word when The fact is that God says nothing has this kind of authority except the word itself.
 
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