Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

[Daniel Marsh]

The Bible started off by oral traditions that were taught.

 

[Albion]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

and...and...which traditions are those??

If we are to hold some traditions, don't we get to know which ones we are supposed to hold?

 

[Mathetes66]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

"And...which traditions are those? If we are to hold some traditions, don't we get to know which ones we are supposed to hold?"

Excellent question, Albion. We are NOT told by the traditionalists specifically what traditions we are to obey & follow, to which Paul is SPECIFICALLY referring.

If one notes the context of verses & what the actual verse says, we can plainly discern several things:

1) These traditions that the believers in Thessalonica learned from Paul were given to them when he first ministered the gospel to them. They already HAD THE TRADITIONS at the very beginning of this church, when Paul first SPOKE to them.

These traditions are the basics of the faith, the elementary principles (Hebrews 6:1-4), as the church in Thessalonica was a very young church of new believers, being taught the basic traditions of the Christian gospel. Paul learned this from Christ & taught it to the Gentiles to which Christ had sent him.

These were NOT ones that came LONG AFTER Paul was martyred or the other apostles or came from the early church fathers. They already knew them & were commanded to continue to keep/hold them.

2) Second, we KNOW that these traditions first came by word of mouth from Paul. We KNOW what Paul taught was NOT traditions handed down to him by men--over a long period of time--but those taught by revelation from Christ Himself (see my former post). They were doctrines & practices received from Christ Himself.

3) Third, we know that these traditions were REPEATED IN PAUL'S EPISTLES, this now being the second epistle to them. So the traditions orally taught them are now written down in Paul's epistles. We CAN KNOW THEM. THEY ARE ALREADY REVEALED.

4) They DID NOT come much later in time.

So now we go to the context that this ISOLATED VERSE, taken out of its context, is found in, to determine what traditions, what elementary teachings, that Paul is pointing to in HIS EPISTLES, which were at first given by word/speech.

The context goes all the way back to chapter one! The traditions Paul taught them by way of word, by way of testimony (2 Thess 1:10) was none other than the basic doctrines of the return of Christ & the resurrection of believers that Christ is coming back for, to be with Him & eternal judgment.

Here Paul plainly shows FOUR OF THESE TRADITIONS: Christ's return, resurrection of the righteous to be with Christ, the son of perdition, the final antichrist & eternal judgment.

That is what chapter one is all about. That context goes right into chapter two for almost the whole chapter as well!

And lest we think this is not plainly evident, Paul states this in 2 Thess 2:5--

Do you not remember that I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS WHILE I WAS STILL WITH YOU?

There it is plainly is in the context: these doctrines, these elementary principles of the gospel, these traditions repeated CAME TO THEM WHILE PAUL WAS STILL WITH THEM, GIVING THEM TO THEM BY WORD & TESTIMONY.

What Paul has now written in these two epistles to the church, he first spoke them to them & this 2nd epistle is reminding them IN WRITING of what he said in word, speech & testimony.

And to make this even more convincing & confirming, see WHY Paul is repeating these very basic principles IN THE CONTEXT IN CH. 2.

2 Thess 2:1-3 NOW--concerning THE COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TOGETHER TO HIM, we ask you, brothers:

2not to be easily unsettled (disconcerted) or alarmed BY ANY SPIRIT OR SPOKEN WORD OR EPISTLE--SEEMING TO BE FROM US--alleging that the Day of the Lord HAS ALREADY COME.

3L LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU IN ANY WAY--for it will not come until the GREAT FALLING AWAY OCCURS & the man of lawlessness—the son of perdition—is revealed.

Notice the IDENTICAL WORDS used in verse 2 are also used in the isolated verse of vs 15! Now these two are tied TOGETHER in the context.

Now we know WHY Paul is repeating these same traditional elementary teachings/doctrines in this now his 2nd epistle to these young believers at Thessalonika.

Paul stated he had already taught them these traditions BY WORD when he was STILL WITH THEM. He repeated them in his first epistle all through it.

NOW Paul is reminding them & bringing these once again traditions to their attention & memory BECAUSE FALSE TEACHERS has crept in & were trying to deceive them, speaking to them of these errors & even writing false/fake epistles to try & convince them that Christ had already returned, the resurrection had already happened & the son of perdition had already been revealed!

This second epistle is not only a reminder that Paul had taught them these basic doctrines of the gospel & of eschatology by word of mouth when still with them but now is reminding them of them in the first epistle & is repeating them in this second epistle with a warning--

because these false teachers needed to be exposed for their lies. Thus in vs 15, he concludes that they need to CONTINUE TO HOLD to these same principles as taught to them by Paul, first by word when with them, then by epistles he sent to them.

Thus contextually we KNOW what these traditions ARE! They have been revealed & made known IN SCRIPTURE! They were revealed by Christ to Paul who in turn taught them to those saints in Thessalonika, who greatly benefited from this basic teachings, due to their need for hope, in the midst of their persecutions & trials.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think he also indicated that he did hear from the apostles and from others too. The story of Paul's journey from Pharisee to Christian and on to apostle (not one of the twelve) is complicated.

He had no contact with the other Apostles until 14 years after his conversion. He first went to Arabia for three years, and then back to Tarsus. It was only after that Barnabas brought him to Antioch. At one stage he stayed 15 days with Peter, and that was about all until he went to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus to settle the problem with the Judaizers corrupting the Galatian churches with their false gospel.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

and...and...which traditions are those??

If we are to hold some traditions, don't we get to know which ones we are supposed to hold?

The ones that don't make God's Word ineffective for salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What Jesus said is different from your summary. It was specific traditions that were an abrogation of the Law that Jesus condemned not every tradition of the Jews.

There are certainly traditions in many modern churches that corrupt the gospel and deceive people into believing they are saved when they are nowhere near the kingdom of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So then you think that those who profess to endorse ECF traditions "welcome" with wide open arms the Sola-Scriptura method of Christ in Mark 7? That they see this as a golden opportunity to demonstrate the claim you just posted?

Is that what we are seeing here?

Or is what is being demonstrated on this thread - in some cases... more like this?

What sola scripture method does Jesus mention in Mark 7? I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to.

 

[BobRyan]

What sola scripture method does Jesus mention in Mark 7? I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to.

What "besides scripture" is Jesus using in Mark 7 to hammer the so-called sacred-tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai?

Is this an example of Jesus saying "something other than scripture will surely show my point here"? (as these two opposing sides clash in Mark 7)

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[GingerBeer]

There are certainly traditions in many modern churches that corrupt the gospel and deceive people into believing they are saved when they are nowhere near the kingdom of God.

Tell me which ones you have in mind?

 

[BobRyan]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

If one ignores the scriptures written to tell us what was being taught by first century Apostles - it would not be possible to follow that instruction.

Thus Paul can say "if WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should come to you with a different gospel let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-9

That is not even possible if one is using the rule "it came from an apostle... it must be true"

2 Cor 11
12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

fake letters
2 Thess 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us

 

[BNR32FAN]

What "besides scripture" is Jesus using in Mark 7 to hammer the so-called sacred-tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai?

Is this an example of Jesus saying "something other than scripture will surely show my point here"? (as these two opposing sides clash in Mark 7)

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?

He is saying that the hearts of the Pharisees are far from Him. Do you believe the hearts of the early church fathers were also far from Him?

 

[Albion]

The ones that don't make God's Word ineffective for salvation.

Like...Be sure to use only the best wine in Holy Communion or Don't fail to wear clean clothes when preaching because you are representing the Lord on those occasions (?)

 

[BobRyan]

What sola scripture method does Jesus mention in Mark 7? I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to.

What "besides scripture" is Jesus using in Mark 7 to hammer the so-called sacred-tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai?

Is this an example of Jesus saying "something other than scripture will surely show my point here"? (as these two opposing sides clash in Mark 7)

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

He is saying that the hearts of the Pharisees are far from Him. Do you believe the hearts of the early church fathers were also far from Him?

That was merely the accusation - but how did he prove his case in Mark 7? -- answer: sola scriptura comparison to the teaching/tradition

were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

 

[Knee V]

Which is one reason why the OP does not just quote from Mark 7.

But Mark 7 is a good , simple, easy example of Christ's teaching where He contrasts tradition with scripture speaking to the magisterium of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai.

Very instructive for those willing to read about the teaching of Christ on this subject.

That is why I am also quoting something other than Mark 7, as the word "tradition" has different contexts, some of which are bad, and some of which are good.

 

[BobRyan]

That is why I am also quoting something other than Mark 7, as the word "tradition" has different contexts, some of which are bad, and some of which are good.

as my OP states - it is not an argument that "all tradition is bad" only that it has to be tested as Christ did in Mark 7 -- sola scriptura - to know whether it is bad or not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What "besides scripture" is Jesus using in Mark 7 to hammer the so-called sacred-tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai?

Is this an example of Jesus saying "something other than scripture will surely show my point here"? (as these two opposing sides clash in Mark 7)

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?






That was merely the accusation - but how did he prove his case in Mark 7? -- answer: sola scriptura comparison to the teaching/tradition

were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

If the apostles themselves advocated sola scriptura Acts 15 would’ve went the complete opposite way.

 

[FenderTL5]

as my OP states - it is not an argument that "all tradition is bad" only that it has to be tested as Christ did in Mark 7 -- sola scriptura - to know whether it is bad or not.

I would still disagree to a point.
Tradition that has already been proven can be useful as verification. As example; the Seven Ecumenical Councils and their conclusions. Those have been tried and confirmed. So, any challenge to those conclusions can and should be attested by the councils themselves. There's no reason to recreate the wheel every time an issue arises.
I see Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Church as being inseparable and complimentary to one another, not at odds. imho, ymmv

It seems your beef is at one individual who only wants to use the ECF's and discounts everything else. Individuals can be wrong from time to time, even the ECFs.
Sola or even more to the point Solo Scriptura has many pitfalls of its own. One of the most contentious and prevailing arguments in the western, post Reformation, church has it's origins in sola-scriptura, both sides armed with lectionaries full of verses to support their side of the argument.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

and...and...which traditions are those??

If we are to hold some traditions, don't we get to know which ones we are supposed to hold?

They are in the Scriptures and the Early Church Fathers.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That is why I am also quoting something other than Mark 7, as the word "tradition" has different contexts, some of which are bad, and some of which are good.

That is a major point. Thanks, Daniel

 

[charsan]

Sola Scriptura is a tradition of man.

Exactly. Some have let the historic Church to practice Traditions of manlike Sola Scriptura, Calvinism, etc