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Featured Sola Scriptura; Helpful information; Teaching

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Agallagher, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    Been meaning to reply to this OP in your thread. So if you want to repair your own.. anything you own, the manufacturer will refer you to either to a certified dealer, or a repair place that specializes in the product. Failing any such being available anywhere near you, they will at the very least refer you to the manual.

    Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth - and the Bible is His manual. It was written by people inspired by God.

    That's the only point I want to make about your OP.
     
  2. CaliforniaJosiah

    CaliforniaJosiah Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sola Scriptura

    The Definition:


    Sola Scriptura is the practice of embracing God's Scripture as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans ("the norm that norms") as it is called in epistemology, as we examine and evaluate the positions (especially disputed doctrines) among us.


    Here is the official, historic, verbatim, official definition: "The Scriptures are and should remain the sole rule in the norming of all doctrine among us" (Lutheran Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, 9). One can argue and claim that "Sola Scriptura" is the preference of fish tacos over hamburgers, but that is not the historic or official meaning.


    What it IS:

    1. An embrace of accountability for the doctrines among us (especially those in dispute).

    2. An embrace of norming (the process of examining positions for truth, correctness, validity).

    3. An embrace of the black-and-white words in Scripture as the best, most sound rule/canon/norma normans for US to USE for THIS process.



    What it is NOT:

    1. A teaching that all revelation or truth is found in Scripture. It's not a teaching at all, it is the PRACTICE of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of doctrines. Scripture itself says that "the heavens declare the glory of God" but our visual reception of the stars is not used as the norma normans for the evaluation of doctrines among us in the practice of Sola Scriptura.

    2. A teaching that Scripture is "finished." Nor a teaching on what is and is not Scripture. It's not a teaching at all. While probably all that practice Sola Scripture agree with all others that God seems to have inscribed His last book around 100 AD and doens't seem to be adding any more books, the Rule of Scripture was just as "valid" in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of just two stone tablets as it is today - only the corpus of Scripture is larger, that has no impact on the practice of embracing it as the rule/canon/norma normans in our evaluation of doctrines among us. The Rule of Scripture embraces the Scripture that is.

    3. Hermeneutics. The Rule of Scripture has to do with WHAT is the most sound rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of the doctrines among us, it is not a hermeneutical principle. Obviously that Scripture needs to be interpreted, but that's a different subject or another day and thread. The Rule of Scripture has to do with norming, not interpreting. It is NOT the practice that MY feeling about what God SHOULD have stated in Scripture as I myself currently interpret things is the rule and norm. It subjects all the various feelings about things to the words of Scripture. Sola Scriptura does NOT employ invisible words.

    4. Arbitration. Obviously, some process of determining whether the doctrine under review "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the canon) is often needed. But this is also beyond the scope here; the Rule of Scripture is the embrace of Scripture AS that canon, it does not address the issue of HOW it is best determined if a position "measures up" to that canon.


    An illustration:


    Let's say Dave and Fred are neighbors. They decided that they will hire a contractor to build a brick wall on their property line, six feet tall. Dave and Fred hire Bob the Builder. He agrees to build the wall on the property line - six feet tall.

    Bob is now done. He claims the wall is six feet tall. Does it matter? If it doesn't, if his work and claim are entirely, completely irrelevant - then, nope - truth doesn't matter. And can just ignore what he said and did (don't matter). OR we can consider that of the over 7 billion people in the world, there is ONE who is incapable of being wrong about measurements - and that ONE is Bob the Builder, claims ONE - Bob the Builder. IF Bob the Builder alone is right about what he alone claims about he alone here, cuz Bob the Builder claims that Bob the Builder is, then it's pretty much a waste of time to wonder if what he said about this is true or not. But, IF truth matters and IF Bob the Builder will permit accountability (perhaps because he is confident the wall IS six feet tall), then we have the issue of accountability: Is the wall what we desire and what Bob the Builder claims it is?

    If so, we just embraced norming. Norming is the process of determining correctness of the positions among us. For example, Bob claiming the wall is 6 feet tall. Is that correct? Addressing that question is norming.


    Norming typically involves a norm: WHAT will serve as the rule (straight edge) or canon (measuring stick) - WHAT will be embraced by all parties involved in the normative process that is the reliable standard, the plumbline. Perhaps in the case of Fred and Dave, they embrace a standard Sears Measuring Tape. They both have one, Bob does too. Dave, Fred and Bob consider their carpenter's Sears Measuring Tape as reliable for this purpose, it's OBJECTIVE (all 3 men can read the numbers), it's UNALTERABLE (none of the 3 can change what the tape says) and it's OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND all 3 parties. Using that could be called "The Rule of the Measuring Tape." The Sears Measuring Tape would be the "canon" (the word means 'measuring stick') for this normative process.


    Why Scripture?


    In epistemology (regardless of discipline), the most sound norma normans is usually regarded as the most objective, most knowable by all and alterable by none, the most universally embraced by all parties as reliable for this purpose. My degree is in physics. Our norma normans is math and repeatable, objective, laborative evidence. Me saying, "what I think is the norm for what I think" will be instantly disregarded as evidential since it's circular. I would need to evidence and substantiate my view with a norm fully OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND me - something objective and knowable. This is what The Handbook of the Catholic Faith proclaims (page 136), "The Bible is the very words of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given. The Bible was inspired by God. Exactly what does that mean? It means that God Himself is the Author of the Bible. God inspired the penmen to write as He wished.... the authority of the Bible flows directly from the Author of the Bible who is God; it is authoritative because the Author is." Those that accept the Rule of Scripture tend to agree. It's embrace as the most sound Rule flows from our common embrace of Scripture as the inscriptured words of God for God is the ultimate authority.

    The embrace of Scripture as the written words of God is among the most historic, ecumenical, universal embraces in all of Christianity. We see this as reliable, dependable, authoritative - it as a very, very, broad and deep embrace as such - typically among all parties involved in the evaluation. (See the illustration above).

    It is knowable by all and alterable by none. We can all see the very words of Romans 3:25 for example, they are black letters on a white page - knowable! And they are unalterable. I can't change what is on the page in Romans 3:25, nor can any other; what is is.

    It is regarded as authoritative and reliable. It is knowable by all and alterable by none. Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming have no better alternative (something more inspired, more inerrant, more ecumenically/historically embraced by all parties, more objectively knowable, more unalterable), they have no alternative that is clearly more sound for this purpose among us. They tend to simply exclude ONE from accountability (typically self).

    To simply embrace the teachings of self (sometimes denominational "tradition" or "confession") as the rule/canon is simply self looking in the mirror at self - self almost always reveals self. In communist Cuba, Castro agrees with Castro - it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Castro is correct. We need a Rule outside, beyond, above self.




    Why do some persons and denominations and cults so passionately reject this practice?


    Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming tend to do so not because they reject Scripture or have an alternative that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative. Rather the rejection tends to be because each rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique case of self alone.

    Others simply hold that THEIR own current, personal "interpretation" of Scripture is above Scripture itself. Their interpretation "trumps" Scripture. Thus, if one argues that "in" means "out" then the reality that Scripture says "in" becomes irrelevant, what SELF currently says is MEANT superceedes what is stated. Self becomes the norma normans. For those who insist self alone is simply smarter or better than Scripture, then this practice will be rejected.


    - Josiah


    .(I ain't dead, just active elsewhere)
     
  3. a-lily-in-the-valley

    a-lily-in-the-valley Active Member

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    I absolutely agree that trying to walk in the Spirit apart from scripture is the completely wrong perspective but I disagree with the idea that God doesn’t speak with us directly.

    To me, believing God doesn’t speak with us directly is one step away from believing God is not present with us and by that route two steps away from atheism.

    Although I think it might be possible that what I would consider God’s guidance and speaking by the spirit other people might consider “their conscience” or something similar. It’s not always some grand proclamation. Once it was just hearing “pay attention” and instead of sending someone away with the standard answer at work I just double checked and found someone completely messed up their file. Things like that, little things that grace another human being, I believe are the active voice of God the Holy Spirit present with us today.
     
  4. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    But not audibly correct ?

    John 5:37
    And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
     
  5. a-lily-in-the-valley

    a-lily-in-the-valley Active Member

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    Not externally audible, more like internal dialogue.
     
  6. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    One reason for studying the scriptures are so we can test the spirits. The Bible says many times about discernment and not being fooled.
    1 John 4
    4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world

    When we get a message in our thoughts there are 3 possible choices from whence it came. It could be our own mind, it could be God or it could be Satan/fallen angel. If the message contradicts scripture we can know that it isn't from God. If we don't look to scripture or don't know scripture then we can be mislead into thinking it is from God when it isn't.
     
  7. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Great point !

    BTW I love your screen name. I've been roasting my own beans for the past 10 years.
     
  8. Agallagher

    Agallagher Undereducated.

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    well I believe that satan has been defeated by Jesus, and I believe we all have a voice that talks to us. You know when scripture says If God is for us who could be against us? The answer was and is ourself, we all have a voice in our head, some have many more but that is a mental handicap that is real and unfixable it seems many people go to aslyums and things like that.

    But we always have a choice to listen to ourself or place our thoughts and priorities on what God would desire for us by the spirit.

    God bless and pleasure talking to you.
     
  9. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8
    8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
    31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

    Even though we are set free from the law of sin and death, this does not mean we won't ever sin, or won't die or can't be lead astray. Everyone dies- unless Jesus comes back before that happens. We all sin even if we hate sin. And we can all be lead astray or sink like Peter beneath the waves.

    If we didn't have to worry about false teachers Jesus would not warn us of them.
    Matthew 7:15-20
    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

    1 Peter 5:8
    8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

    Which is why we need all the armour of God
    10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armour of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

    18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.
     
  10. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Us Aussies love our coffee. We are known as the coffee snobs of the world. ^_^
     
  11. Agallagher

    Agallagher Undereducated.

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    okay thank bro have a good night
     
  12. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    I'm a lady, but okay, good night.
     
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Certified Flunky

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    I think this image sums my belief up concerning this thread...


    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Sola Scriptura makes no such judgment of anyone. It is a trumped up charge.

    The problem with this teaching is that it seeks to establish a division between the Holy Spirit and the word of God. They are not exclusive from each other.

    What you clearly need to understand is that it is the Spirit that gives life to the word and Jesus is called The Word because he is the fulfillment of the written promise. It is the logos who became flesh and dwelt among us and he became thus by the Holy Spirit as Luke records.

    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    It is the Holy Spirit who gave the word in the first place and I hardly think that he will now contradict it.

    2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. [emphasis mine]

    So, you see, it is the Holy Spirit who confirms sola scriptura and not merely theologians.

    If you are asking, "Can someone be saved without knowing the Bible?"

    Most of us were. My own salvation was this way. I was a mere child, younger than 8, with very limited knowledge of the Bible. Yet I was moved on by the Holy Spirit when I heard my dad's testimony of my salvation from physical death and disability. I didn't know what the Bible said about being saved and believing but I knew that I owed Jesus everything and I gave it to him, right outside the church building all on my own. I had no counselor to guide me, I merely surrendered my life to him.

    Later I learned of the importance of the Bible as a guide and studied it and I can honestly say today that I would not like to be without it, though this is entirely possible. By it I learned what the apostles taught and how God revealed his plan of salvation through the prophets and other Old Testament writings. Today I trust it and lean on it to know God's way and his will. I can clearly see how both the word and the Spirit that proceeded from God's mouth are one: totally united and so defend the authority of the other.

    You may choose to make or hear of attacks on the validity of the Bible, I simply choose to ignore them because I have a living relationship with Jesus by both the Spirit and the word [the Bible].
     
  15. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can't understand Scripture without the Holy Spirit and you can't "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1, 1 John 4:6) without Scripture.

    Scripture is God's Word and the Holy Spirit is the comforter who "will remind you of all that I [Jesus] said to you" (John 14:26)

    This makes them of equal weight. (JESUS spoke in Old Testament times too)

    As a beside, the earliest Christians went to the temple and/or synagogues to hear Scripture read, and shared the letters among themselves... They were not without Scripture. They were eventually thrown out of the synagogues (as prophesied by Jesus in John 16:2), but not before they had basic knowledge of the scriptures, and many churches had scrolls or copies of various books (because they knew what was coming before it came) which they did share among themselves.

    As far as a b&m church goes, the b&m is where we meet with the brethren, and it's essential. It doesn't matter if we are meeting in a park, or someones home, but the in person meeting of the local body is essential... without it there are no baptisms, no mentoring of one another, no building up of the body, no charity to one another, no Lords supper etc etc. It's essential.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  16. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I don’t think am I closer to God than someone else, even if they would read the Bible.

    However, if someone claims to have Bible God’s Holy Spirit and claims something that is in contradiction with the Bible, I don’t believe that person.
     
  17. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    good morning sis !! :)
     
  18. Agallagher

    Agallagher Undereducated.

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    Haze what is b and m church?
    Hey thank you for your post 1213, what would you think that the Holy Spirit would do for someone in the life of someone who never read the Bible, yet have the spirit and maybe even they don’t know it yet they believe in something higher then themselves which they were created by?

    @Jesus is YHWH good morning bro
     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Brick and mortar. At the end of the video the speaker said we didn't need brick and mortar churches at all, for any reason... I disagree and listed my reasoning.
     
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  20. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    with the exception in communist countries such as china where we see the underground church meeting in homes.
     
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