Sola Scriptura: Are the Scriptures Sufficient as a Rule of Faith?

[Fidelibus]

A third possibility, and the one with the most value, is that Scripture is sufficient. Even if people interpret it differently, that doesn't diminish the truths of God found only in the Bible.

And the bible verse for this is??????

 

[chevyontheriver]

The one that decides what is truth is God, not man.

True.

And it is He who will determine who has believed a lie of man, or has believed the truth of the word of God.

True.

Even the disciples did not interpret the scri8ptures correctly, nor did most Jews at the time, or they would have known Him whom came to be the Lamb of God.

True.

Jesus took the disciples through those scriptures, and opened their eyes to what was there that they had not seen.

Jesus did way more than just explain Scripture to his chosen ones for three years. So right there it's not just Scripture.

So it is with us today, ...

Indeed. Which is why we shouldn't be using Scripture only, but everything Jesus taught to his disciples and had the Holy Spirit lead the Church into.

... the scriptures are there, they say the truth, ...

Yup! Nobody here is disputing that the Scriptures are true.

but it is the eyes of men that read them, and not always through the Spirit of the Lord and end up believing, not what the scriptures say, but what men say it means. We believe what men say because we want to, and because more often than not, it is an easier path to follow. Narrow is the way, and few want that path and take the broader one presented by man. He will determine who is following His word and has been persuaded by the words of men.
The final and only autho9rity as to what is believed, and who has believed the truth and who has not--0-is Gd

That's all great. Everybody misreads Scripture except for you and your guys. So Scripture is sufficient for you and your guys. I guess that proves the sufficiency of Scripture. But how can it be sufficient for all of those other guys? By the way, I'm pretty sure most of them would even agree with each other that your guys are on the wide path. Not the narrow path. So are the Scriptures sufficient for you and your guys? Would everybody else say so?

 

[Tradidi]

Incorrect. It is absolutely is relevant to the topic at hand. One of the claims scripture makes about itself is that is breathed out by God. It's one of the properties scripture possesses and as a result is one of the reasons the Scriptures are sufficient as the Rule of Faith.

Your question "what besides scripture..." is irrelevant, because we are not talking about "anything besides Scripture". It is Scripture that the claim in the OP is about.

Maybe. I agree that Paul is speaking of the of all scripture regardless of when it was written and that it does goes to the very nature of scripture itself. Scripture is Scripture from the very moment it comes into existence. Though I'm not sure how this is supposed to help your case.

Since this is crucial to the correct interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, I must insist we are clear on this point before continuing.

The nature of a thing is a set of characteristics that describe and apply to each and every thing with that nature. For example, if I know that the nature of an apple is that it grows on a tree, then I know that every apple grows on a tree. When I know that this thing I have in my hands is an apple, then I know that this thing I have in my hands grew on a tree, because that is the nature of an apple.

By the way, if you are not sure how a Protestant ought to answer this question, or if you think it is a trick question, check out the great debate between James White and Patrick Madrid for some inspiration. It is James White himself who brought this point to my attention, thinking in the end it would support SS.

So, when you're ready, let me know which one it is: you agree, you disagree, you need more clarification.

Do you agree that St. Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is speaking about the nature of Scripture?

 

[Albion]

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

To recap:

You said there is no Bible verse that says Scripture is the only authority.

I replied that there is no Bible verse that refers to any other.

If there is no other...or if no other one can be found in the authority that we all agree upon and which comes from God himself...

then, we must conclude that there is, in fact, that one and only that one.

 

[thecolorsblend]

All of Jesus' and the apostles infallible instructions that we know of, we know of from a book.

And the apostles did instruct us that the scriptures are sufficient to serve in the role in question:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Can you show me the scripture that describes and prescribes "sola scriptura"? Thx!

Where is this ONLY argument coming from. Who said that?

Isn't "sola scriptura" basically translated as "scripture alone"? If so, a reasonable person would say it's right there in the name.

 

[Albion]

Indeed. Which is why we shouldn't be using Scripture only, but everything Jesus taught to his disciples and had the Holy Spirit lead the Church into.

That's easy to say, but we HAVE God's revelation in Scripture. You do not have what Jesus taught the disciples but which is not also in Scripture.

In fact, Scripture itself states that although he did much else in the presence of his followers that is not recorded, that which is recorded is all we need to know in order for his purposes to be met (John 20:30-31).

Yet you are telling us that we must have it and that it's available. Neither of those is true.

That's all great. Everybody misreads Scripture except for you and your guys. So Scripture is sufficient for you and your guys. I guess that proves the sufficiency of Scripture.

For the umpteenth time, Sola Scriptura is about the nature of Scripture, not how somebody interprets it.

More precisely, it is that Scripture is unequalled by anything else when it comes to essential doctrine.

 

[concretecamper]

You said there is no Bible verse that says Scripture is the only authority.

which is fact

I replied that there is no Bible verse that refers to any other.

other what?

If there is no other...or if no other one can be found in the authority that we all agree upon and which comes from God himself.

not logical based on what you've argued.

then, we must conclude that there is, in fact, that one and only that one.

ok then.

Anyone else can show where the Bible says that scripture is the only authority?

 

[concretecamper]

Can you show me the scripture that describes and prescribes "sola scriptura"? Thx!

Isn't "sola scriptura" basically translated as "scripture alone"? If so, a reasonable person would say it's right there in the name.

I've seen misdirection and opinion, but no scripture. Curious, isnt it?

 

[Tradidi]

For the umpteenth time, Sola Scriptura is about the nature of Scripture, not how somebody interprets it.

You are on the right track here. Now apply this brain wave to 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Is Paul speaking there of the nature of Scripture, or is he speaking about something else? You are allowed to swap notes with @Athanasius377 before answering.

 

[Philip_B]

I hesitate to contribute, given that I know if all the Anglicans in the world were laid end to end they would never reach a conclusion!

The question of the thread is: Sola Scriptura - are the scriptures a sufficient rule of faith?

Sola Scriptura as proposed by Martin Luther was not to be understood as 'me and my Bible' but rather laid the argument that a lay person with the Bible was better than a Pope without a Bible. He was arguing specifically against abuses, and specifically in the day against the sale of indulgences to fund the building the a New St Peter's Basilica, which was a practice Martin Luther understood contravened the principles laid out in Scripture, namely that grace and salvation were the work of Christ and accessed by faith. He was not as cavalier in his dismissal of history and tradition as many who came after him.

The notion of a canon of scripture implies that it is the rule or measure by which the rest of history and tradition can be measured. When Luther measured the sale of indulgences against scripture he found the practice did not measure up.

We do ourselves a disservice when we think salvation history begins in 1517, 1532, on even in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation history begins as the Spirit of God broods over the waters ere creation was begun.

Anglicans in our historic documents affirm that all things necessary to be believed for salvation may be found in Holy Scripture. That does not however force the position of sola scriptura on every Anglican, and neither is it disavowed.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And the bible verse for this is??????

You might expect them to quote you 2 Tim 3:16.

Of course the problem with that is the Scripture Paul was referring to is the LXX, which contains some books that they don't consider to be Scripture AND does not contain any of the New Testament. So if THAT is sufficient, who needs a NT? And why don't they study Tobit?

Timothy was raised on the LXX by his mother Eunice and grandmother Lois. And that's what Paul says, if we accept their particular interpretation, is sufficient. Which is why the whole Scriptural sufficiency thing fails.

 

[Tra Phull]

I smell the deal that all Protestants are SS.

I am Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

 

[Albion]

Anyone else can show where the Bible says that scripture is the only authority?

The point has been explained numerous times by now and in different ways, none of which seems to have drawn much in the way of a direct challenge or even a follow-up question. If something there was unclear, ask.

 

[Philip_B]

I smell the deal that all Protestants are SS. I am Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

I am not sure that the term protestant is even useful anymore in a post vatican II world. Wesley was well grounded!

 

[concretecamper]

The point has been explained numerous times by now and in different ways, none of which seems to have drawn much in the way of a direct challenge or even a follow-up question. If something there was unclear, ask

Again, instead of just claiming something has been done.....you of.course can put this all to bed by showing us, not just saying it is so.

Anyone else have any scripture passage that says scripture is the ONLY rule of faith for a Christian?

 

[Albion]

Again, instead of just claiming something has been done....

It hasn't just been claimed. It's been posted. And several different approaches to getting through to the critics of Sola Scripture were tried.

If there is an issue with any of that, identify it for us so it can be addressed.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus did way more than just explain Scripture to his chosen ones for three years. So right there it's not just Scripture.

Jesus spent 3 years explaining the scriptures---His word is scripture, His words are truth. He is niot an outside source---He is the source.

That's all great. Everybody misreads Scripture except for you and your guys. So Scripture is sufficient for you and your guys. I guess that proves the sufficiency of Scripture. But how can it be sufficient for all of those other guys? By the way, I'm pretty sure most of them would even agree with each other that your guys are on the wide path. Not the narrow path. So are the Scriptures sufficient for you and your guys? Would everybody else say so?

It doesn't matter what everybody else thinks. It only matters what God thinks. If His words say that those words are sufficient for our salvation---then that is exactly what means. You can't even figure out what sufficient means. Why then should your words supersede what the words of Jesus say? Why should the words of anyone else matter? Either you believe the bible is the word of God or you don't.
If you want to sit in the pews and just be told what to think, you haver that right. The words says we are to study the scriptures, not sit there and be told what they say. God gave us a brain, He expects us to use it.

Luk_4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
That means what it says, every word of God. Not by some man up there stating His opinion. Whether he be Pope, bishop, Pastor, we always have the word of God open and judge the words by what the book says, not judge the book by what anyone else says. If the Minister is not saying what the bible says, he is wrong, if the Pope says it, it is still wrong if the words contradict what the bible says.
If my pastor, or anyone else says something different from what the scriptures say---they are wrong.
We are all free to choose whom to believe. No law can impede that, it can only decide what our actions are. If a government imposes a law that contradicts the word of God, then it is a matter of whom to follow, the government or the word of God, no matter where that government is. Catholic or Protestant have to make that choice when a country suppresses our right to practice what the word of God says. Priests and Nuns and Protestants have died for their believes. God judges the heart. Catholics and Protestants have both killed each other for that right.

 

[Tra Phull]

Scripture
Reason
Tradition
Experience

All influencing each other.
Tradition determines the scope of Scripture, Scripture is primary - it is sufficient, but apprehended through Reason, and Experience plays a part in this too, though the Anglican Hooker said experience was part of REASON.

In the 60's Albert Outlet designated Wesley' s quadrilateral

 

[Athanasius377]

Isn't "sola scriptura" basically translated as "scripture alone"? If so, a reasonable person would say it's right there in the name.

True except the definition was given in the OP to avoid this confusion.

 

[James A]

Since nobody alive can hear Paul directly, all we have today are his writings. No living church official has written any Scripture.

"Word of mouth" refers to the Traditions of early church and "letter" refer of the text of New Testament .

2 Thessalonians 2:15, NIV: "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."