Sola Fide

[Mark Quayle]

If I am not mistaken, Strong's definitions are from a time when Koine Greek was thought to be Attic Greek with special Holy-Spirit given words added to the vocabulary. If that is so, then its definitions need to be treated with caution.

Hmm. I don't recall ever hearing of that, so I can't speak to that. Nevertheless, all definitions by man are to be treated with caution, specially our own! Like with science, we are never at an end of learning concerning anything.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Would that be because in the NT it is always used of faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual. . .which implies trust, trustworthiness, fidelity?

No, it is because Greek has one word where Latin has two. English also has two - faith, belief - and some more - trust, fidelity.

 

[RileyG]

Do you agree that nobody in John 6 bites Christ and that this is also true at the last Supper?

The unfaithful disciples accused Christ of cannibalism because they refused to believe his words, and they left him. Body and Blood= whole person.

 

[RileyG]

You must cooperate with the grace of God. Just believing isn't enough. Even Satanists believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In Latin they are distinct yet in Greek it is no so.

Because you speculate that Strong is suspect? He shows a difference and so do most translations, no? Or am I butting into a conversation about something else?

 

[Clare73]

You must cooperate with the grace of God. Just believing isn't enough. Even Satanists believe.

Saving faith trusts. . .Satanists do not trust and, therefore, do not believe savingly.

For forgiveness of sin, which is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18), trusting faith only can apply (Eph 2:8-9).
Faith's works of obedience apply in the sanctification process of the Christian life, which works lead to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19), for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Saving faith trusts. . .

And it works, and it partakes of the sacraments.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Do you agree that nobody in John 6 bites Christ and that this is also true at the last Supper?

The unfaithful disciples accused Christ of cannibalism because they refused to believe his words, and they left him. Body and Blood= whole person.

The faithful disciples did not bite Christ in John 6. Instead they accepted his teaching about the symbol

Jesus reveals the full meaning of the symbols

John 6: 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.​

Peter says that the faithful disciples accept his teaching that literal flesh is worthless in this scenario - only the teaching (Words) matter for eternal life

​

John 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

The result: Neither the faithful disciples (those that stayed with Christ) or the faithLESS disciples - bite Christ in John 6.

 

[Clare73]

And it works, and it partakes of the sacraments.

Agreed. . .and I'm sure you agree with the Scriptures that works do not forgive the sin (i.e., salvation) which condemns all (Ro 5:18) to God's wrath (Ro 5:9), which faith only does (Eph 2:8-9), right!

 

[RileyG]

BobRyan said:

Do you agree that nobody in John 6 bites Christ and that this is also true at the last Supper?


The faithful disciples did not bite Christ in John 6. Instead they accepted his teaching about the symbol

Jesus reveals the full meaning of the symbols

John 6: 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.​

Peter says that the faithful disciples accept his teaching that literal flesh is worthless in this scenario - only the teaching (Words) matter for eternal life

​

John 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

The result: Neither the faithful disciples (those that stayed with Christ) or the faithLESS disciples - bite Christ in John 6.

No one believed the Eucharist was a symbol until the Protestant Reformation. Both Catholic, Orthodox, and ancient Apostolic Churches believe the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It's a sacred mystery.

 

[RileyG]

Saving faith trusts. . .Satanists do not trust and, therefore, do not believe savingly.

For forgiveness of sin, which is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18), trusting faith only can apply (Eph 2:8-9).
Faith's works of obedience apply in the sanctification process of the Christian life, which works lead to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19), for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

You said nothing that contradicted me. You ultimately must cooperate with the grace of God. Salvation is a free gift from God. One has to freely accept it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Agreed. . .and I'm sure you agree with the Scriptures that works do not forgive the sin (i.e., salvation) which condemns all (Ro 5:18) to God's wrath (Ro 5:9), which faith only does (Eph 2:8-9), right!

Works and the sacrament play a part in walking with God which is what salvation is for.

Why play around with words; salvation is the goal, faith, good works, sacraments are the path. Each is needed, none are optional.

 

[concretecamper]

And the true gospel has been explained to you more than once, backed by Scripture. And yet even with your insistence on strict aquittal you acknowledge that a justifed person is changed-for the better such that, as slaves to righteousness sanctification results and therefore eternal life. Not all Sola Fide adherents agree with you that holiness is necessary to see the Lord. But you're still stuck on your canned theology.

Some people identify more with snow covered dung (Luther's words) than with adopted Sons and daughters of God.

 

[Valletta]

Here Stravinskas is careful not to suggest that the pertinent Matthean and Johannine passages pertaining to the Roman definition of papal primacy have been infallibly defined, but rather he says they are ‘germane’ to that dogma. He admits that there are ‘few examples’ of such official biblical definitions, and concedes that such official interpretations are ‘rare.’ Yet, in spite of this, he states that ‘to push for one’s own interpretation counter to twenty centuries of authentic and authoritative understanding of a particular passage would appear to be spiritual pride and arrogance of the worst sort.’ But this is precisely what Rome has done in the face of the Church’s historical exegesis of Matthew 16. The vast majority of the early church fathers viewed the rock as either Christ or Peter’s confession of faith, rather than Peter himself.

The number of times the Catholic Church has come out with such official Biblical definitions is in the single digits. This is a fact and has never been a secret so "admits" and "concedes" seems rather dramatic. The Catholic Catechism states:

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

Chapter 2. I Believe in Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God

Section Two 1. The Creeds

catholic.net

As Catholics we know that Jesus renamed Simon as "Rock" and believe what Jesus told us--that He built His Church on Rock (Peter). Peter's confession is Peter, not Paul or John or Mark. So it is no surprise that the vast majority of Church fathers spoke of the Rock upon which Christ built His Church as Peter or Peter's confession.

 

[Clare73]

You said nothing that contradicted me. You ultimately must cooperate with the grace of God. Salvation is a free gift from God. One has to freely accept it.

I distinguished between faith and saving faith. Demons do not have saving faith, they do not trust on Jesus. They have intellectual assent.
Salvation comes with one's faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ--no work (performance) required, for the forgiveness of one's sin and (forensic) righteousness; i.e., justification, with actual righteouness leading to holiness by works of obedience in the Holy Spirit in the Christian life (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

 

[Clare73]

Works and the sacrament play a part in walking with God which is what salvation is for.

Why play around with words; salvation is the goal, faith, good works, sacraments are the path. Each is needed, none are optional.

That's a question for Paul who also "plays around with words" in Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28, Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19, Gal 1:6-9, etc..
Would he do so if it were not important?
According to NT apostolic teaching, what you are trusting for salvation is critical, only Jesus' finished work, or your work added to it.

 

[Clare73]

Some people identify more with snow covered dung (Luther's words) than with adopted Sons and daughters of God.

And we are still left with the "snow covered dung" of the word of God in Heb 12:14: "Without holiness, no on will see the Lord."

I find it more than regrettable that anyone would see the holy word of God written as "snow covered dung."

 

[concretecamper]

I find it more than regrettable that anyone would see the holy word of God written as "snow covered dung."

Why would you refer the the Word of God as such. Horrible

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I distinguished between faith and saving faith. Demons do not have saving faith, they do not trust on Jesus. They have intellectual assent.
Salvation comes with one's faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ--no work (performance) required, for the forgiveness of one's sin and (forensic) righteousness; i.e., justification, with actual righteouness leading to holiness by works of obedience in the Holy Spirit in the Christian life (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

In the Catholic perspective, saving faith is rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself" (CCC, 1814).

Scripture references that support the Catholic perspective on saving faith include:

• Hebrews 11:1 which states "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This verse highlights the importance of having faith in things that are not yet visible or tangible.
• John 3:16, which says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." This verse emphasizes the importance of belief in Jesus Christ as the means of salvation.
• Romans 10:9-10, which states "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." This verse highlights the importance of confessing faith in Jesus Christ and the role of belief in the heart in salvation.

In summary, the Catholic perspective on saving faith is that it is a theological virtue by which one believes in God and all that he has revealed through Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, and it is rooted in the belief that Jesus is the saviour of the world and that through faith in Him we will have eternal life.

Footnote:

In Catholic teaching, faith and works are both important aspects of the Christian life. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Faith and works are intimately united, for it is by faith that we are led to do good works".​

​

Scripture references that support Catholic teaching on faith and works include:​

​

• James 2:17, which states "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." This verse highlights the importance of good works as a manifestation of faith.
• Ephesians 2:8-10 which states "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This verse emphasizes the importance of good works as a result of grace, and faith, not as a way to earn salvation.

In summary, Catholic teaching emphasizes that faith and works are intimately connected, and that faith without works is dead. Faith leads us to do good works, which are a sign of our faith and our response to God's grace. Good works are not a way to earn salvation, but the natural outcome of faith in God.​

 

[Clare73]

In the Catholic perspective, saving faith is rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself" (CCC, 1814).

Scripture references that support the Catholic perspective on saving faith include:

• Hebrews 11:1 which states "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This verse highlights the importance of having faith in things that are not yet visible or tangible.
• John 3:16, which says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." This verse emphasizes the importance of belief in Jesus Christ as the means of salvation.
• Romans 10:9-10, which states "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." This verse highlights the importance of confessing faith in Jesus Christ and the role of belief in the heart in salvation.

In summary, the Catholic perspective on saving faith is that it is a theological virtue by which one believes in God and all that he has revealed through Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, and it is rooted in the belief that Jesus is the saviour of the world and that through faith in Him we will have eternal life.

Footnote:

In Catholic teaching, faith and works are both important aspects of the Christian life. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Faith and works are intimately united, for it is by faith that we are led to do good works".​

​

Scripture references that support Catholic teaching on faith and works include:​

​

• James 2:17, which states "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." This verse highlights the importance of good works as a manifestation of faith.
• Ephesians 2:8-10 which states "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This verse emphasizes the importance of good works as a result of grace, and faith, not as a way to earn salvation.

In summary, Catholic teaching emphasizes that faith and works are intimately connected, and that faith without works is dead. Faith leads us to do good works, which are a sign of our faith and our response to God's grace. Good works are not a way to earn salvation, but the natural outcome of faith in God.​

Are you in agreement with Ro 3:25 that saving faith is particular in its looking to the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for us?