Socratic Method a Good Way to "Test the Spirits"?

spockrates

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Yes, I'm sure they did to some extent, but this wouldn't necessarily mean the Greeks respected the Jews of Socrates' time in a way that influenced Greek thought. In regard to some of this, John Collins gives some interesting comments (see p. 6):

That may or may not be a question that anyone can actually answer ... it's not as if all questions have answers available to them. In which case, we have to go by our own best lights in interpreting the world around us, as well as Scripture (hopefully with the help of the Holy Spirit). ;)
Agreed.
 
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spockrates

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Rely on the HS as is evidenced in your life as the guarantee of your salvation...elaborating...the HS is given to man as a guarantee or down payment for his salvation.

Acknowledged.

the evidence of that HS is the fruit of the Spirit as found in Gal. 5 as well as righteousness in ever growing greatness.

Seems subjective, and so unreliable. Let me explain:

A Christian who is doing a much better job than she used to at immitating Christ might think she's doing much worse than she used to, as the Holy Spirit might give her a hightened sensitivity to her own sinfulness. You might see the growing fruit of the spirit, whereas her humility causes her to see only wormy apples.

Then again, one who thinks he's a Christian but isn't might think far too highly of himself to notice the withering fruit on his branches. To him it's God's best harvest, but you see it for what it really is - denial and pride.

In both cases, one can be self-deceived by one's own subjectivity. So shouldn't fruit inspecting be done by someone more objective?

IOW's The fruit of the spirit is love...we should constantly be growing in Love not worldly love but Biblical Love which is ...putting another above self in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration.

Acknowledged.

Relying on this is where most of my personal doubts come into play because I want to take all the blame rather than accepting that God is working as is evidenced in my life.

Yes, so you might in fact be producing the most wonderful fruit! But perhaps your heightened awareness of sin still within clouds your perception?

The second step could vary depending on how one studies scripture on the matter but I would put it as study of the word of God, rightly dividing it through a careful study and prayer. I think I shared the layers of protection I personally put on my study, I can share again if you are interested but that isn't as important as study I am referring to from scripture itself.

It seems I'll need a more reliable and objective way than my own opinion to determine the quality of my fruit. Any suggestions?
 
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razzelflabben

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I'm glad we are in agreement.

I remember hearing of big revivals in Toronto, Brownsville, and Pensacola. I hoped they were real but, stuck in Taiwan, I had no way to judge it for myself. There was great controversy, but the Great Awakening had great controversy too.

Then, someone wrote an article saying that in past revivals, the power of God had moved out of the church and transformed the surrounding communities. Even hardened pagans had a fear of the Lord. That was not happening in these modern revivals. So that made me doubt the revival's fruit.

Finally, I watched a video of one of the meetings. The service was full of foolishness and laughter. It presented comfortable people enjoying a comedy show. I saw no holiness, no transformation, and no fruit of the Spirit. That confirmed for the that these revivals were not of the Holy Spirit.
some of this is judgment without reason and others are not. The point being that we cannot base truth on fruit we can only base it on the witness of the HS sometimes they overlap sometimes they don't
 
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razzelflabben

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Acknowledged.



Seems subjective, and so unreliable. Let me explain:

A Christian who is doing a much better job than she used to at immitating Christ might think she's doing much worse than she used to, as the Holy Spirit might give her a hightened sensitivity to her own sinfulness. You might see the growing fruit of the spirit, whereas her humility causes her to see only wormy apples.

Then again, one who thinks he's a Christian but isn't might think far too highly of himself to notice the withering fruit on his branches. To him it's God's best, but you see it for what it really is - denial and pride.

In both cases, one can be self-deceived by one's own subjectivity. So shouldn't fruit inspecting be done by someone more objective?
I can answer you in two ways here. First, 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Romans 12:3...this is what scripture says in response to your question. Seldom is humility the problem. In fact, what we often call humility is really pride in disguise.

Second, a story...When I came to Christ I was about 6 years old I came because I needed to have the power of God in my life in order to survive (not going into detail so that the point isn't lost) It wasn't until many years later that I had an opportunity to look back and see that God had taken a kid who should not have survived and allowed her to thrive. This looking back that we are talking about isn't a weekly thing or a monthly thing sometimes it's a many years down the road thing. Our focus isn't on examination but on moving ahead in a more Christ like manner...
Another story for clarification. Our son died about 7 years ago. One of the men we knew accused us of basically killing our son by bringing God's judgment on us because we believed in the trinity. I wanted to strangle the man for making an impossible situation even more difficult. Ran into the man in a local story. where every fiber of my being wanted to have it out with him I instead prayed that God would help me love him. My husband did go off on the man but I was able to talk to him calmly and get him to understand some things he was missing. No way was that my power. Our self examination isn't always "am I doing better" but rather "was it my effort or something beyond my ability alone."

Just some thoughts for what it's worth. I recognize in you the questioning because I have myself had similar questions. I also know from experience that sooner or later you simply have to accept what God says and trust in it rather than doubt as you are right now.
Acknowledged.



Yes, so you might in fact be producing the most wonderful fruit! But perhaps your heightened awareness of sin still within clouds your perception?
again, the same questions I have been asking myself. The only conclusion I can give you is that if you never accept that God is at work in your life and producing fruit you are doubting God more than you are doubting yourself. I know in your head that is backwards but in your heart I think you will find I am right.

Another quick story. Some people very close to me have been going off about literally nothing. Accusing me of things that are not true. I turn that to doubts of myself but what I am having to learn is that it is really doubting God. You see, others and myself if I am being honest with myself see that these people are running from anyone who challenges them to yield control to God. This is what scripture says will happen and instead of accepting it as true in this situation I am doubting that I am living as God ordained me to live. Who has the power in my life? If I have given it all to God then He has the power and will not fail to work His good work in me and if I doubt that He is doing that I am doubting Him. By your own admission you have yielded yourself to seeking Him with all that you are. So the question then is not will He work, but why you allow your doubts to keep you from seeing the work He is doing in your life. Trust me, I get how hard this is. My own husband and son will tell you that my greatest flaw is taking things like this too seriously, but what is that really? It is putting me above God and the work that He promised to do in us. Sober judgment is a humility judgment where we think of God above ourselves. C S Lewis said this of humility...humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less. When we doubt as you and I do we are thinking more of ourselves than the God who we want to serve which is in fact pride.
It seems I'll need a more reliable and objective way than my own opinion to determine the quality of my fruit. Any suggestions?
see above...in addition find someone you trust because of the fruit you have seen in them to help.

When I met my husband I was convinced I was insane because of how I was raised. He is the one that showed me that I was not insane, that what I was seeing is what was really going on. I trust him to tell me truth and while he is speaking truth I ask God to search me and reveal to me any wicked way. The question is whether or not you trust that God will reveal to you anything you missed in yourself.
 
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spockrates

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I can answer you in two ways here. First, 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Romans 12:3...this is what scripture says in response to your question. Seldom is humility the problem. In fact, what we often call humility is really pride in disguise.

I'm thinking it's probable 2 Corinthians 13 is speaking of corporate self-examination rather than personal self-examination. The context of 1 Corinthians gives strength to this idea. Paul might be saying he knows there's still division in the church leadership over his own authority and his call to kick an important member of the church out. However, the church leaders should decide if they are going to remain in the faith and continue to heed his advice, or leave the faith by rejecting him as a spokesperson for God (verse 6). The leadership should pray that they together make the right decision about the direction their congratulation will take (verse 7).

However, I can see how Romans 12:3 definitely supports your view. Thank you!

Second, a story...When I came to Christ I was about 6 years old I came because I needed to have the power of God in my life in order to survive (not going into detail so that the point isn't lost) It wasn't until many years later that I had an opportunity to look back and see that God had taken a kid who should not have survived and allowed her to thrive. This looking back that we are talking about isn't a weekly thing or a monthly thing sometimes it's a many years down the road thing. Our focus isn't on examination but on moving ahead in a more Christ like manner...
Another story for clarification. Our son died about 7 years ago. One of the men we knew accused us of basically killing our son by bringing God's judgment on us because we believed in the trinity. I wanted to strangle the man for making an impossible situation even more difficult. Ran into the man in a local story. where every fiber of my being wanted to have it out with him I instead prayed that God would help me love him. My husband did go off on the man but I was able to talk to him calmly and get him to understand some things he was missing. No way was that my power. Our self examination isn't always "am I doing better" but rather "was it my effort or something beyond my ability alone."

Just some thoughts for what it's worth. I recognize in you the questioning because I have myself had similar questions. I also know from experience that sooner or later you simply have to accept what God says and trust in it rather than doubt as you are right now. again, the same questions I have been asking myself. The only conclusion I can give you is that if you never accept that God is at work in your life and producing fruit you are doubting God more than you are doubting yourself. I know in your head that is backwards but in your heart I think you will find I am right.

Another quick story. Some people very close to me have been going off about literally nothing. Accusing me of things that are not true. I turn that to doubts of myself but what I am having to learn is that it is really doubting God. You see, others and myself if I am being honest with myself see that these people are running from anyone who challenges them to yield control to God. This is what scripture says will happen and instead of accepting it as true in this situation I am doubting that I am living as God ordained me to live. Who has the power in my life? If I have given it all to God then He has the power and will not fail to work His good work in me and if I doubt that He is doing that I am doubting Him. By your own admission you have yielded yourself to seeking Him with all that you are. So the question then is not will He work, but why you allow your doubts to keep you from seeing the work He is doing in your life. Trust me, I get how hard this is. My own husband and son will tell you that my greatest flaw is taking things like this too seriously, but what is that really? It is putting me above God and the work that He promised to do in us. Sober judgment is a humility judgment where we think of God above ourselves. C S Lewis said this of humility...humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less. When we doubt as you and I do we are thinking more of ourselves than the God who we want to serve which is in fact pride. see above...in addition find someone you trust because of the fruit you have seen in them to help.

When I met my husband I was convinced I was insane because of how I was raised. He is the one that showed me that I was not insane, that what I was seeing is what was really going on. I trust him to tell me truth and while he is speaking truth I ask God to search me and reveal to me any wicked way. The question is whether or not you trust that God will reveal to you anything you missed in yourself.

Thanks you for your stories. Can't imagine what it was like going through that. Love C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Also loved the Narnia stories, all of which I read to both my sons before they could read themselves. Lewis was also good friends with another author I admire: J.R.R. Tolkien.
 
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razzelflabben

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I'm thinking it's probable 2 Corinthians 13 is speaking of corporate self-examination rather than personal self-examination. The context of 1 Corinthians gives strength to this idea. Paul might be saying he knows there's still division in the church leadership over his own authority and his call to kick an important member of the church out. However, the church leaders should decide if they are going to remain in the faith and continue to heed his advice, or leave the faith by rejecting him as a spokesperson for God (verse 6). The leadership should pray that they together make the right decision about the direction their congratulation will take (verse 7).
many things in scripture are both/and rather than the either/or we try to make them out to be....look at 5-7 Examine yourselvesto see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not so that people will see that we have stood the test but so that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed.

The question we must ask in order to understand the intent is where in scripture are we told that Christ is in anyone and who is He in? I only know one answer to this question but since you are the one who is questioning maybe you should look it up. Who does God indwell? Does He according to scripture indwell the Body of Believers or the individual believer? See, context isn't just about the immediate verse but the totality of scripture as well. Don't be afraid to ask scripture questions and then look for the answers.
However, I can see how Romans 12:3 definitely supports your view. Thank you!



Thanks you for your stories. Can't imagine what it was like going through that. Love C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Also loved the Narnia stories, all of which I read to both my sons before they could read themselves. Lewis was also good friends with another author I admire: J.R.R. Tolkien.
Both excellent authors. One of the times we were homeless, we managed to get ahold of the Chronicles of Narnia and I read all of them to our then young boys...what a great time we had that summer. Read so many good books to them that year.
 
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spockrates

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many things in scripture are both/and rather than the either/or we try to make them out to be....look at 5-7 Examine yourselvesto see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not so that people will see that we have stood the test but so that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed.

The question we must ask in order to understand the intent is where in scripture are we told that Christ is in anyone and who is He in? I only know one answer to this question but since you are the one who is questioning maybe you should look it up. Who does God indwell? Does He according to scripture indwell the Body of Believers or the individual believer? See, context isn't just about the immediate verse but the totality of scripture as well. Don't be afraid to ask scripture questions and then look for the answers. Both excellent authors. One of the times we were homeless, we managed to get ahold of the Chronicles of Narnia and I read all of them to our then young boys...what a great time we had that summer. Read so many good books to them that year.

:)
 
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